I thought that she had to go to the judge because she couldn’t get consent from her parents, and the judged denied her because of her grades.
Was responding to “when I got bad grades, […] my parents didn’t make me give birth.”
~Max
Got it. Thanks.
Of course, these rulings have been overtaken by events in many states, where it wouldn’t matter what the teen or her parents wanted her to do, because abortion is illegal in those states.
Right, well this was the law even while Roe stood. That Guardian article is about a case decided in January.
It goes back to what I was saying, minors don’t have the right to decide except by the grace of their parents or the state.
~Max
That’s not the only weird thing - months later, that same teenager who is not mature enough to consent to an abortion suddenly is mature enough to consent to the resulting child being adopted or receiving medical treatment. I’m not talking about prosecuting her for negligence if she doesn’t consent to the child’s medical treatment - I’m talking about the reverse, that her consent is sufficient to allow medical professionals to provide non-emergency treatment. If the 15 year old mother consents to her 2 month child getting a DPT immunization, the doctor can provide the immunization without getting anyone else’s consent. And the same goes if the two-month old needs heart surgery and the mother consents. Her consent (and possibly the birth father’s ) is sufficient to surrender the child for adoption ( a judge may have to approve the placement with the adoptive parents, but that’s separate from the surrender).
And “more experience” doesn’t really work , because the minor may be consenting to medical treatment for the child immediately after birth, before she has gained any experience.
I think you’re missing the point of the initial rant. No one said they have the right (maybe they should), but the judge should look at the case and think, “well, if this child is too immature to have an abortion then she’s definitely too immature to be pregnant with all the medical care and issues that go with that, and definitely for sure too immature to have an actual child herself. In the interest of the better good, I will agree with her wishes and allow her to go through this minor medical procedure, rather than forcing upon her the coming major medical and life changing events.”
But, how would that be punishing her for having sex?
Yeah, not sure how to get around that.
That is indeed the case, Fla. stat. 743.065(2):
An unwed minor mother may consent to the performance of medical or surgical care or services for her child by a hospital or clinic or by a physician licensed under chapter 458 or chapter 459, and such consent is valid and binding as if she had achieved her majority.
You are forgetting that she carried the pregnancy and birthed the child, which are both… experiences. As I understand it a newborn mother’s brain is rewired during that process, but it’s common knowledge that new mothers tend to be protective of their spawn.
~Max
I’m not forgetting that - but merely living through those particular experiences is not usually what is meant by being better able to make a decision because you have gained experience. What experience has the 15 year old girl gained to justify her having decision making authority over the child she gave birth to a minute ago when an hour before the birth she presumably couldn’t consent to non-emergency treatment for herself
Was it overturned in time to matter?
Let me break down my views on this, from back to front. Pretending I’m the judge:
In the interest of the better good, I will agree with her wishes and allow her to go through this minor medical procedure, rather than forcing upon her the coming major medical and life changing events.
If I’m not convinced she’s mature enough to waive parental consent, that doesn’t mean I’m forcing her to carry the pregnancy to term. It means I’m not going to step between her and her parent, who is forcing her to carry the pregnancy to term. Or maybe she hasn’t even asked her parents for consent - maybe her parents don’t even know she’s pregnant. As was the case in the Guardian article.
There may be good reasons to go to court before the parents. Back in the day an unwed pregnant woman was a social exile, and that is still the case in some families today. It’s illegal to just throw out a minor but there’s a lot of space to make her life miserable within the letter of the law, then cut off all ties the day she turns 18. On the other hand if I am playing a judge, that’s none of my business unless a law is actually broken. People have the legal right to believe stupid things and treat people like crap.
In the interest of the better good, I will agree with her wishes and allow her to go through this minor medical procedure, rather than forcing upon her the coming major medical and life changing events.
That’s not my job. The statute does not say, if the judge thinks it would serve the better good, he shall grant a waiver of parental notice and consent. It says I have to find that the petitioner is mature enough to decide whether or not to have an abortion. If there’s a conflict between law and the greater good I want judges to follow the law.
Why?
You assume that the greater good is served by allowing the girl to obtain an abortion. The entire pro-life contingent of society disagrees with you. Many who are strong on parent’s rights (read, anti-vax) disagree with you. We are talking about Florida, remember? This is at least a sizeable minority. To them the greater good is served by preventing abortions. I don’t want the judge to have the discretion to resolve that debate one way or the other. Pit the legislature all you want.
well, if this child is too immature to have an abortion then she’s definitely too immature to be pregnant with all the medical care and issues that go with that, and definitely for sure too immature to have an actual child herself.
The only maturity required to “have an actual child” is physical maturity, that is, fertility. There is the case of the five year old in Peru who gave birth, which is a horrible thing. But for most girls that would be around ages 12 to 13. To do so relatively safely, the pelvis must be fully developed, probably age 15 or so. I also assume there is proper medical care during the pregnancy and birthing.
well, if this child is too immature to have an abortion then she’s definitely too immature to be pregnant with all the medical care and issues that go with that, and definitely for sure too immature to have an actual child herself.
Any girl who is fertile is mature enough to be pregnant. Medical issues can happen regardless of maturity. A basic level of medical care, such as going to the hospital to give birth, requires only a minimum level of maturity. For example letting someone call 9-1-1 when your water breaks.
But that’s not optimal. And that’s probably what you meant to say. Ideally, a pregnant mother obtains proper prenatal care, follows healthy eating habits, etc. so as to minimize complications during pregnancy and birth. It takes maturity to do these things.
Coincidentally, it is the parent or guardian’s responsibility to look after the child’s health and welfare. Fla. stat. 744.361, “Recognizing that every individual has unique needs and abilities, a guardian who is given authority over a ward’s person shall, as appropriate under the circumstances: […] To the extent applicable, make provision for the medical, mental, rehabilitative, or personal care services for the welfare of the ward.”
well, if this child is too immature to have an abortion then she’s definitely too immature to be pregnant with all the medical care and issues that go with that, and definitely for sure too immature to have an actual child herself.
Anybody who is pregnant is mature enough to have an abortion. The question is whether she is mature enough to decide whether or not to have the abortion. I know you understand the difference - but I can’t let this slip by as it is likely to be misinterpreted.
Let’s put all of this together into something I actually agree with.
The judge should look at the case and think, “well, if this child is too immature to decide to have an abortion then she’s definitely too immature to
be pregnanthandle her pregnancy well with all the medical care and issues that should go with that _, which medical care her guardian has the duty to provide for., and definitely for sure too immature to have an actual child herself. In the interest of the better good, I will agree with her wishes and allow her to go through this minor medical procedure, rather than forcing upon her the coming major medical and life changing eventsAccording to statute, if she does not demonstrate the maturity requisite to decide whether to have an abortion, I must reject her petition to waive the parental notice and consent requirements."
~Max
But that’s not what the judges are saying in their rulings. They’re talking about emotional maturity and other obvious bullshit. Such maturity is entirely irrelevant, especially because it requires much more emotional maturity to have a baby (and retain good psychological health, along with a full understanding of the medical consequences of a full pregnancy and birth) than to end a pregnancy.
The law says you (a minor) need parental consent to have an abortion, unless you demonstrate to the court that you have the maturity to decide for yourself. Judges don’t have the leeway to say you haven’t demonstrated maturity but I’m going to let you get the abortion anyways. ‘Maturity to have a baby’ is a total non-sequitur as far as pitting the courts goes.
~Max
Then judges should rule in favor of the minor in every such case, since every single minor on Earth that has ever lived has sufficient emotional maturity to choose to end a pregnancy (since the alternative requires much more emotional maturity).
This just doesn’t make sense to me. How is emotional maturity necessary to have a baby? Even going back and reading your edit,
Sure, it takes some level of emotional maturity to retain good psychological health after giving birth. But that’s not necessary. A lot of women go through postpartum depression. Which sucks, but Florida isn’t going to prefer abortions to prevent people from being depressed. Not any time soon, at least. Mental health just doesn’t get the votes.
The law isn’t written to take into account mental resilience in case of birth, so as I wrote above, judges don’t have leeway to take that into consideration. The deck is stacked against the girl who seeks an abortion.
~Max
The state of Florida doesn’t need you as a boot licker. And yet you lick that Florida boot oh so enthusiastically.
And yet I live in Florida, and actually do vote for or against judges. Whereas those of you who don’t live in Florida participate in this pitting for… purely recreational purposes?
Not that there’s anything wrong with that. But you won’t get much closer to making a difference than engaging with the people who go out and vote.
~Max
Again, the state of Florida does not need you as a boot licker. If you choose to step in and lick that boot, then don’t be shocked when people start thinking of you as a fascist boot licker.
I’m not criticizing you for participating in the thread, I’m criticizing you for white-knighting fascists.
By contrast, I am fine with being thought of as an anti-fascist boot licker.
IANAL, but AFAICT nothing legal would stop a judge deciding that every minor had sufficient emotional maturity to abort based on my justification. That’s the only possible moral decision.
That it doesn’t make sense to you doesn’t matter. You’re a young and inexperienced man. Of course you would have no such understanding. I doubt you’re capable of it at this time.