I ask these questions not to provoke, but out of genuine curiosity:
Do you, as a non-believer, accept the notion that many believers acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace from their faith?
If you answered ‘yes’ to question one, are you willing to acknowledge any measure of feelings of envy toward those who reap such benefits of their faith?
Sure. At least for comfort. Not so much for strength.
None whatsoever. I feel that they are deluded and their comfort is misplaced. I am actually grateful that I do not share it.
Comfort and solace sure. Strength? In my opinion, believing that you go to a magical happy place and see lost loved ones when you die is anything but the strong person’s choice. It’s the easy one.
I don’t envy people that are deluding themselves.
Yes. I can see some people getting strength and purpose out of their belief in an all powerful, loving deity watching out for them.
Yes and no. I do sort of envy people who feel that they are being protected and watched over by a loving, trustworthy deity. However as an agnostic, I feel my agnosticism has made me more aware and grateful for the self determination and self compassion the human race is capable of showing itself via medicine, social justice, political freedom, etc. I don’t feel like I’d have the gratitude and amazement towards our species and its self determination and self compassion if I believed in a powerful deity who was in control of events.
So yes and no.
I’m sure some do, but I don’t think it’s as widespread as some claim. If I was a true believer as the religious folks that I know claim, I wouldn’t act as mournful as I see them act when their loved ones die, knowing that I’ll see them in a relative short amount of time and that they’re free of pain and enjoying the afterlife now. When I see them act the same as me, someone that is quite sure dead people are gone for good, I wonder just how much they really believe what they claim deep down.
Sure. Religion is bad for the world as a whole, but for those that are really giddy about the gory of God and how great everything is going to be in the afterlife, what could be sweeter? Yes, they’re deluded. But I’d be one thrilled son of a bitch if I was convinced I was going to see all my dead loved ones again and have eternal joy.
I doubt it. People can find ways to rationalize and strengthen their spirits no matter what. Lying to ourselves is a marvelous skill of the species. In times of need, we can always envision our family, our own cussedness, our favorite superhero, financial gain, or whatever else to give us a motive to keep it up. Having a preset entity to focus on doesn’t really add anything. And hell, Superman always wants me to succeed. God sometimes thinks its my turn to be the sacrificial lamb.
N/A
(Bolding mine) Great typo!
Yep. No problem acknowledging that.
Nope. For one, it’s not the only way one might “acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace”, and secondly, I don’t really need to “acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace”. Besides, some people “acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace” from any number of delusional thoughts. Maye the need to “acquire some degree of strength, comfort and/or solace” is unnecessary. I’m content to just be.
I don’t believe that most believers really believe.
I think part of the reason there is so much religious violence is that believers doubt their own belief, and this is so painful they want to lash out violently at anyone or anything that does not reinforce their belief.
Hypothetically, I do think it would be nice to KNOW I was going to heaven, and it would comfort me during my earthly trials. But there are probably few or no believers who believe to such an extent that they get those benefits.
Let me also note that if, for example, you watch TV shows like Solitary, the people who are obviously religious do less well than the people who rely on cussedness and greed. If anything, I think there might be more evidence that faith acts as a crutch, inhibiting the formation of motivations based on real world goals – which, by being real, carry greater weight.
I get strength, comfort and solace from a different set of beliefs. No reason to feel envy.
Sure. There’s a reason why so many people who went through hard times turned to faith to help them go through it.
No, not really. I recognize the benefits, but I think I can get them in alternate ways. Sometimes I tell myself that I’d enjoy being a Catholic priest if I believed in God. Maybe something like a Jesuit, who can be both a priest and, say, a teacher. But I don’t choose my faith, and as I said I can get the benefits in another way.
Well, I’ll break from the pattern here and say yes and yes.
It was much easier for me to make sense of my life when I believed in God. I had a feeling of safety, even in unsafe circumstances. I also had a sense that I was a redeemed being–that my imperfections were okay because God was greater than that my human failings. When I royally screwed up, I could comfort myself knowing it was a part of God’s plan, and that he loved me anyway.
That is gone. Life without God is frightening and uncertain. I already have an anxiety disorder; removing God from the equation just kicks it into overdrive. I hate the way the world is, meaningless and full of suffering. I can’t stand it. I fight it all I can but I know ultimately I won’t change the reality – that we are an ignorant, often viscous, sometimes sadistic and vile race of people who hurt one another over and over out of desperation for a peace we can’t by nature achieve. I include myself as one of those vile beings, and there is no redemption for any of us.
The man I love more than anything in the world is eventually going to die, and statistically he’s likely to go before me, thus any real sense of joy we have is here for a fleeting instant and then gone. Eventually my body is going to break down and hurt every day and I will become helpless and dependent on others to eat and shit and then I, too, will die. And it will probably hurt, and I may be alone, and I will almost certainly be terrified. There will be no comfort other than the knowledge that I did my best, and then it will be over.
Belief in God may be irrational, but I think it’s preferable to the alternative, above.
However, I am willing to concede that the above interpretation of reality is irrational too, or in the very least, one-sided. I am open to the possibility that I can change my view of the world and human nature and achieve the same comfort without resorting to logical contortions. Other responses in this thread would indicate as much. Atheism does not necessarily lead to existential dread. In this case I think the problem is pretty clearly psychological as the above perspective is pretty much a textbook symptom of PTSD.
In other words, I might deal with fear and a sense of meaninglessness, but I can’t attribute that to my atheism, and I can’t assume that a belief in God would eliminate what is essentially a psychological problem.
Also, I am weirdly happy with things as they are. There is a sense of freedom and autonomy in atheism that I never had as a Christian. There is something to be said for making the best of the absurdity that is the human condition.
Yes to the first question and no to the second, as appears to to be the consensus.
The thing is, I already do what religious people do, I just don’t need to an organised religion and the façade of the existence of a loving god to do it. When times get tough, I remain as positive as possible, and believe that I can make things better, even if it doesn’t seem logical at the time. I can make myself believe I can do things that I previously thought myself incapable of, without the need for praying to a god for strength.
When people ‘trust in god’ they’re really just trusting in themselves, they just don’t know it, or don’t accept it because for them it would break down that connection to their own source of strength.
Absolutely yes.
Like others have said before me, no, I don’t envy or aspire to be a believer. I believe that believing that God is in control takes all of the personal responsibility/credit away from the human. For example, I have a fundie friend that stopped smoking and said that God was responsible. In my eyes, SHE was responsible for making the good decision to give up smoking. Her God has bigger fish to fry.
Comfort & solace? Certainly, just as powerful drugs can. That doesn’t make doping yourself up so you don’t really care how disastrous your life is a good idea. As for “strength”, it makers them warped; evil and irrational. It makes them stronger, more effective at evil and madness because they are less willing to acknowledge the evil of what they do and therefore less likely to stop it. It makes them stronger the way PCP makes you stronger; destructively, irrationally.
No. I find religion and its effects and its followers loathsome.
I’d see that as being similar to someone who grew up blind and then, as an adult, had corrective surgery and feels insecure and confused by all the moving images for the rest of his life because he was too old to adapt readily by the time the surgery was undertaken. You could argue that the simplicity of life as a blind man versus the more adventurous life of the sighted man – but with greater ability to handle problems – equal out to equivalent levels of security, and yet he’ll always feel a bit more insecure with his gained sight.
It’s also worth noting that feeling secure in unsafe circumstances is just accepting continued blithe ignorance and is ultimately self-destructive behavior. The duration of the period of worry might be shorter, compared to someone who recognized the threats, but when they come you’re screwed, instead of having a way out. Worry is built into us for a reason. Defeating that isn’t necessarily a sign of strength.
It brings to mind an analogy of a child transitioning to adulthood. Childhood is a kind of blindness. Adulthood opens your eyes; this newfound vision is not always pleasant. What you’re saying, though, is actually rather positive. You’re saying that even though I may feel less safe, I’m in actuality more safe than ever before because I am aware. I do find that idea somewhat comforting.
Though I would add that now, as a finally sighted person, I am also keenly aware of the limitations of vision. Even though I don’t ‘‘see’’ it, I know every time I shift the direction of my gaze I am blind for that split second, and I know that my eyes play tricks on me all the time. I am less likely to trust my perception than someone who has been sighted all their life. I find even sighted reality a highly subjective experience.
This is a good point, and it’s also worth noting that I obviously didn’t feel safe, not really, not even with God. If I had, I wouldn’t have PTSD. So maybe I was just deluding myself. But I try to understand why I had a sudden religious conversion in 6th grade despite both of my parents being non-religious, and why my belief was so fervent and unshakeable during that period of my life, despite being a reasonably smart kid and having so many people pressure me into giving it up, and why losing that faith hurt so much. Self-preservation is the only answer that makes sense. Belief in God served some psychological function or protective mechanism in some way.
Now that this protective mechanism is gone, I have had to learn to adapt. Sometimes this works out really well for me, other times, not so well. Just like life.