U.S. - The Evil Empire

A lot of people have been taking this particular point to task and asking for cites on Dubya stealing the election. I’d like to point you to the following:

[ul]
[li] Supreme Injustice: How the High Court Hijacked Election 2000 by Alan M. Dershowitz[/li][li] The Betrayal of America: How the Supreme Court Undermined the Constitution and Chose Our President by by Vincent Bugliosi, et al[/li][li] Divided We Stand : How Al Gore Beat George Bush and Lost the Presidency[/li]by Roger Simon
[li] Down and Dirty : The Plot to Steal the Presidency[/li]by Jake Tapper
[/ul]

You can argue that these people are wrong and/or you can argue that they are working from their own liberal agenda but you can’t argue that everyone thinks President Bush got there fair and square. I have just started Supreme Injustice and will be happy to pull cites from that book if anyone wishes once I get further.

The question was whether “the majority of US citizens believe that Bush stole the election.” My impression is that a majority don’t think so.

However, I do agree with “Whack-a-Mole” that some Americans believe that W stole the election. Perhaps Bush’s case was strengthened in the public mind when it was shown that even if Gore had gotten the recounts he asked for, Bush still would have won.

Of course, in an election this close, it’s natural to be dissatisfied. However, I do think a majority of Americans accept the election and have moved on. Moved on to Gary Condit…

Do you know how sick of this crap I am? I voted for Gore, I think Bush is a lousy Prez, etc., etc., but the raving hypocrisy of talking about Bush’s past lifestyle sickens me. HairyPotter, would you have said one disparaging word if it had turned out that Gore or Nader were the party animals in their past? I strongly doubt it - “it’s in the past” or “the drug laws are anachronistic, anyway”, would have been your likely response.

Sua

Back to Kyoto. Why do other countries support Kyoto? Because they have no intention of actually reducing emmissions. Even if Kyoto passes it will be ignored. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. What happens when the emmissions targets aren’t met? Then everyone blames the US while continuing to spew pollution.

This is not true. From here:

Here’s an interesting graph of per capita GDP versus per capita CO[sub]2[/sub] which shows how the US produces much more CO[sub]2[/sub] per capita than richer countries. I imagine this is a little simplistic though as it doesn’t take acount of the historical industrial differences between these countries.

It is true that there’s a long way to go and most countries probably won’t reach their targets, but surely we must at least try.

I cannot understand this POV. Either global warming is a huge threat or it isn’t.

If global warming will destroy the planet, then we can’t afford to fail. We must make Kyoto work, even if enforcement requires nuclear war. Or we must find some other approach to dramatically reduce greenhouse gases. Or, we must reduce the earth’s temperature by some wholly different approach, e.g. blowing up volcanos to increase atmospheric ash.

If global warming isn’t as big a threat as the pessimists fear, then we don’t need to destroy our economy by following Kyoto.

We have a bunch of Americans moaning about a few percent of their GDP to possibly save the planet yet at the same time they are happily going to allow their government to start the worlds most expensive and useless project ever. Their star wars shield will not stop enough missiles in an attack from Russia or China to make it worthwhile and if a smaller nation wants to do an attack they can just drive a speedboat into New York harbour. Aswell as the costs there is the chance of messing up world peace. America was happy to sign a missile and space weapons treaty when Russia was powerful in space and missiles but now its no threat the treaty goes. Don’t get me wrong either I’m not anti American just anti stupidity. If the world went environmentally friendly America would make loads of money from selling the necessary technology for this.

I have found a number of responses to this thread very interesting. I intended to propose a personal perspective that I welcome being challenged. I never learned a damned thing from anyone who agreed with me completely.

A number of folks pointed out that the U.S. produces a large percentage of the world’s finished goods, and that somehow compensates for the greenhouse gases. It is logical and understandable that businesses are focused on productivity and profits. However, it is not necessarily in the best interests of local and/or global society to continually exploit more resources and produce more finished goods. The earth and environment are not inexhaustable resources. A great deal of harm can be done if businesses are allowed to operate exclusively based on business interests. It is the duty of governments, activists, and citizens to push for regulations that either penalize bad behavior or encourage responsible behavior.

SuaSponte questioned whether I would curse Gore or Nader if they had been party animals in their past. That depends. If the partying was followed by a substantial period of service to society, I would be less critical than I would be if long-term partying carried forth into middle age, was followed by a stable period of nominal accomplishments, culminating in election to the Presidency. In truth, I believe that individuals who fight and claw their way to positions of power are rarely wonderful humanists. Such people tend to be aggressive risk-takers.

I thank Whack-a-Mole for the references. Sounds like some pretty interesting reading.

Anyhow, I’m enjoying the discussion. I have been forced to look at the issues in different ways…thank God!

My apologies to everyone… my original number was in err. The CIA World Factbook lists the US’s percentage of the GWP as 23%. Granted, these are '99 numbers, and the factbook indicates that the US production levels were up significantly. Additionally, this still indicates that the US is the highest producer of industrialized products on the planet, and my original point still stands… that it’s not surprising to see the most productive country have the most pollution levels.

Looking back, I forgot where the 30% figure came from. I apologize again.

The Elder or the Younger? Nevermind, it doesn’t matter. The examples of the few in no way undermine the examples of the many. I stand by my point that the OP’s idealism about politics is naive.

Sorry to get your name wrong, Spoofe.

Just for the hell of it, as a challenge, I’m going to try and argue OP’s position.

Leaving aside the tangled web of whether Bush deserves to be president, lets look at Kyoto.

Global warming from greenhouse gas emissions is potential disasterous for the global environment. The US is a leading producer of greenhouse gases. It is also a leading producer of value-added goods. The problem that many people have with the US is that it hasn’t offered up an alternative to Kyoto. With a large degree of consensus from its allies on the treaty, no doubt for both altruistic and commercial reasons, the from-the-hip dismissal of the treaty by the Bush Administration immediately after election is a “thumbed nose”. Europeans and Australians are sensitive about the issue, and the dazzling speed in which the announcement was made suggests a failure to comprehend this sensitivity, and that it was a deal with industry. Forget about China - who is supposed to be setting the standards?

As I understand it, the decision to abandon the non-nuclear proliferation treaty was made with an eye to the change in strategic assessment of the world. While Mutually Assured Destruction was the prevailing paradigm, then non-proliferation made sense. The trouble is, I think it still makes sense, and so do most of America’s allies.

The “disjoint enemies” I think refers to the recent “anti-hegemon” treaties signed between China and Russia. I think this is true. There are still a lot of issues between China and Russia so I wouldn’t call them best friends just yet, but the re-introduction of a shield purportedly against “rogue states” (none of which have the capability to deliver a nuclear weapon against the US) which has more of a strategic flavour must cause these countries concern. MAD goes out the window if one side has a shield. If China and Russia have an anti-hegemon treaty, it paves the way for them to build up arms without worrying about each other. The more missiles you have, the more likely some of them will get through a shield, the less likely the US will do anything silly.

Actually this is all true. Arms sales to foreign countries can’t be helping their internal problems. MGibson has stated that land mines are still an “integral” weapon in warfare, and I dispute any legitimacy in their use. Landmines cause too many non-combatants harm to justify their existence.

Spoofe says:

and MGibson says:

Its not good enough for the US to say, “Oh-ho! China and Russia does it: so should we.” Do Americans really want to use China and Russia as a measuring stick?

Given Americans should have learned after the 70s oil crisis that the rest of the world can have an impact upon their daily lives, I don’t understand this either.

Lemur866 wrote

Fines are imposed by some countries on factories that produce excess pollution, now, under local legislation. What makes you think Kyoto, enatced as local legislation, would be ignored?

msmith537 says

You mean, other than trade with the US, and allow US military installations, such as early warning radar, on their soil to help protect American citizens?

Finally, MGibson says:

Now this is a bold statement. How can this be justified? Members of the UN are hypocritical (eg. not paying dues on the basis of some pro-abortion terminology, from a country that allows abortion). The UN itself is subject to the whims of its members. Parts of it are useless (the Military Staff Committee) and parts of it are fantastic (UNICEF, UNHCR). I think the main problem is that the US can’t play the game as well as the others, and more particularly that the US diplomatic corps are a bunch of amateurs. But this is a debate for another thread, perhaps.

Since HairyPotter is mighty incensed that GW Bush won’t join numerous other nations in condemning land mines, let’s think about this issue a moment.

What does it cost, say, the Norwegians to sign a declaration that they’ll never use land mines? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! They know the Swedes aren’t going to invade them. What does it cost the Belgians to renounce land mines? Once again, not a damn thing (what, you think they’re worried about a blitzkrieg from Luxembourg?). Australia and New Zealand are thousands of miles from any possible aggressor. Land mines are of no value to them, so they can easily afford to take the high road, and declare that land mines are an abomination.

Gosh, it’s mighty easy to condemn something you don’t need, isn’t it?

But what about, say, South Korea? They have a large, hostile, heavily armed enemy right next door- an enemy that’s led by maniacs, increasingly desperate maniacs, at that. Land mines are a big part of South Korea’s defense, an important deterrent to invasion.

But never mind that! 100+ nations that face NO danger of invasion are only too happy to disable South Korea.
Nations that face NO threat to their security are eager to sacrifice the security of nations that DO face genuine peril. And those nations feel mighty good about themselves for doing so.

The USA has allies it must protect, and it would be foolish to disarm those allies, just so the Swiss and the Icelanders can pose as humanitarians.

**

All those nifty weapons probably keep Israel and Taiwan pretty darn secure. So far as I understand it the landmines that cause the most problems are those that last for many years after the war has ended. We can produce mines these days that will last for a specified amount of time and then blow themselves up. If you were a soldier making a quick retreat you might appreciate mines dropped from an airplane to slow down the enemies advance.

**

Why give the enemy an advantage if we don’t have to? We’re going to encounter people in the future that continue to use mines. Tell me what good it would do the US to support the land mine bad when the leading producers do not do the same?

Given Americans should have learned after the 70s oil crisis that the rest of the world can have an impact upon their daily lives, I don’t understand this either.

[/quote]
**

I think we realize that things do have an impact on us. That doesn’t mean we’re going to go along with what other countries do all the time.

**

:slight_smile: I’m sure all those western European countries were only thinking of us when they traded and when we put bases on their soil.

**

You have an organiztion which claims to respect human rights. At the same time members do not have to respect human rights and are pretty much free to do whatever they want to their citizens.

What’s the problem? The UN isn’t a government body so it isn’t like their decisions are binding.

Marc

was followed by a stable period of nominal accomplishments
When you get yourself elected governor of ANY state, then come on back and talk to us about nominal.

Astorian says:

Actually we’re pretty touchy about Indonesian aggression. Landmines would be a useful way of deterring Indonesian occupation of the vast stretches of northern Australia.

Scandanavians are really sensitive about Russia, especially Finland, which was a Russian duchy for a long part of its existence. The Balkan states are essentially Western countries absorbed by the Soviet Union. Scandanavians wanted none of that. And Iceland would be a key acquisition in an Atlantic war.

The issue is the usefulness of landmines. Shall we start a separate thread?

MGibson writes:

Of course not. (And other countries should feel free to incur Super 301 trade sanctions on the recommendation of the US Trade Representative - sorry couldn’t help myself) But isn’t the reduction of global warming an adequate reason? I’ve said elsewhere - if the US had an alternative plan, I don’t think people would be quite so upset.

In terms of military issues, actually I was thinking of Okinawa, which had no say on the issue, and Pine Gap and the North-West shelf early warning bases in central and Western Australia. Australia is a rock solid ally of the US. Australia has no need of US military assistance. Australia has granted the US the right to set up these bases for the purposes of allowing the US to protect its citizens.

In terms of trade, yes its a two-way street. Glad you don’t agree with protectionism. My comment was in response to the statement that the rest of the world had done nothing for the US recently, so I guess you’re not disagreeing with me.

Take it up with those other countries, not with the UN. Would you like the UN to impose human rights standrards over the US, Somalia, Yemen, Israel, Iraq and Libya by taking away capital punishment? I think its a disgrace that those countries can extinguish their citizen’s lives. But what can the UN do about it…?

…which you recognise anyway, by this comment.

With the mention of Germany and Kyoto how does Germany plan to resolve Kyoto with the closing of so many nuclear power plants in favor of the much more environmentally friendly (coughs)Coal plants.

Erek

mswas: further to your point, it would appear that many of the reductions in carbon dioxide emissions Germany has apparently achieved have come from the closing of the old East German highly polluting state heavy industry, rather than from any active cutting of their ‘own’ production.

[Inspector Cluseaux voice]
“Not now Cato, you yellow monkey!!!”
[/Inspector Cluseaux voice]

Or the brothers Gracchi, but perhaps I’m being a bit more cynical than most.

Interesting topic. A few comments.

First off, I didn’t vote for Bush, and don’t much care for his personal politics. That said, I do my damndest not to judge him personally as a human being…I don’t know the man, have no idea how much he honestly believes is coming out of his mouth, or what he truly believes is in the best interests of the country and not just the special interests that helped elect him (this being true of any politico, regardless of party or support).

In regards to his partying background…pull out the American twenty dollar bill, you’ll see someone who took his partying ways to the White House (yup, Old Hickory had to jump out a second story window to escape the high spirits of his own inaugural). And that particular gentleman’s behavior was probably much more grounds for Impeachment than anything Bill Clinton might have done (Trail of Tears anyone?). Bush, by the looks of things, has cleaned up his act. Which is probably good, because if he was a coke addict at one time, and he still was, well, you’d have to hope he wouldn’t give up Wyoming for a fix, and that would be bad. :wink:

However, Bush’s past is as irrelevant as Clinton’s. If we’re going to critcize Bush, let’s do it in a more high minded fashion. The only reason anyone might get hung-up on Bush’s possible drug past was that he was the only candidate from either the DEMs or the REPs who wouldn’t answer the question right away on whether or not he did use drugs at some time. If Clinton’s avoidance of Vietnam isn’t what you consider a big deal, then neither should Bush’s partying ways be. Do it for what he does now, not what he did then. If his long seeming vacations aren’t to your taste now, you can call him on that. If you don’t think he works as hard as he should, you can call him on that. I wouldn’t call him on the old habits if he’s abandoned them.

I don’t know if he “stole” the election or not. I’m not convinced he wouldn’t have gone the same route Gore did contesting Florida…it was a very close state and very close election. I seem to recall one media recount that shows Bush would have prevailed if the recount just covered the counties Gore wanted recounted…but a statewide recount would have done the reverse. Don’t ask me where, and don’t quote me on that, though. There’s enough suspicious activity on both sides of the line in Florida if you know where to look. Gore may have kept asking for a recount, but his party wasn’t the one that bussed in paid protestors from across the Union to chant outside counting stations, his brother wasn’t the governor of Florida, and the Secretary of State in Florida wasn’t a high ranking member of the “Gore for Florida” election campaign. Either way, I think its safe to say God’s the only one who knows for certain whether the right man’s in the White House right now.

Now, as far as Kyoto goes, it is interesting to point out that the only two nations that have currently ratified the treaty that are even close to being fully industrialized are Romania and Mexico. It hasn’t been passed in Germany yet, or Britian, or a bunch of other places. The US, and by extention the Bush Administration, are the only real holdouts who say, “No, it won’t work.” though.

Yes, it is probably important to point out Bush is looking out for “American interests”, but my personal view is that given multinational corps. going over national boundaries, the Internet, and much quicker travel, the world is a lot “smaller” than it used to be, and many concerns don’t begin and end on any countries’ borders. We don’t need the rest of the world dictating policy for us, but we likewsie shouldn’t ignore it. Isolationism movements in the 20th century always turned around to bite the US in the ass sooner or later…it might be best to learn from those times.

Now, I have in front of me the August 6th, 2001 Newsweek. In there, Fareed Zakaria, who writes regular analysis of gloabal events, talks of the recent trend for other nations to “gang up” on the US. Zakaria cites this as normal, something that happened to Napoleonic France, Nazi Germany, and the Soviet Union…it is natural for other nations to try and gang up on the most dominant or powerful nation, if not in the world, then in the region. As a further example, during the American Revolutionary War, France did come to the colonists’ aid…but Spain likewise declared war on England at about that time without coming to colonial aid. England being the heavy hitter on the block at the time, this is perhaps not so surprising that the Spanish saw an opportunity to hit them as well.

Zakaria, though, wonders about this and why it is happening now and not sooner to the US given how long it was since the Cold War ended. I’d love to be able to cut and paste this article here, but Newsweek’s online archive will only bring up old articles if you pay a small fee with a credit card I don’t have. And I’m much too lazy to type out the whole thing. So, I’ll sum up here.

Zakaria spoke to Henry Kissinger. Kissinger, a conservative, was of the opinion that while Bush is “right on substance” his fault comes in how he has been delivering his foriegn policy. Namely, Kissinger feels that Bush has been mostly making unilateral statements on such issues as Chinese relations, missile defense, and global warming. The American attitude is coming off as one of “Well, we’re going to do this anyway, so why should I care what you think?” Combine this with the election of more central/left governments in most of the nations in Europe compared to Bush’s right leaning, and you’re going to have some conflict on policy.

Now, Kissinger feels that the way to get back in the good graces is actually something Dave seems to suggest…that Bush fall back on tradional American diplomatic tactics and give other nations more of a say then they might legitimately be able to demand for themselves. Kissinger cites the formation of the Atlantic Alliance in the 1940s. European nations were comparitively weak after WWII, but were given a level of participation above and beyond what they could have rightfully demanded against a largely untouched by war US. Making unilateral statements like the Bush team has on Kyoto is one of the things that causes relations to go bad, even if our allies are still our allies. Making compromises and bringing participants to the table is a way to avoid that, and most indicators seem to suggest that Bush isn’t doing this as well as he could be.

Of course, all Presidents make mistakes. Most of the big ones come early on when they’re still feeling their way around. Clinton seemed to handle foreign relations pretty well…but, then again, early in his term, when he didn’t know jack about foreign policy, Clinton asked Richard Nixon to the White House for a weekend tutorial. Maybe it wouldn’t hurt Bush some to do something similar to avoid future mistakes while still pushing American interests.

Now, on the subject of “evil empires”…no, I disagree. Maybe Bush doesn’t represent my personal interests, but that doesn’t make the US an “evil” nation. Granted, Japanese Interment camps and Indian reservations show the US hasn’t always been a “good” nation, but currently we’re a long way away from legitimately evil empires like Nazi Germany or Stalin’s USSR. In many wars, the US is fortunate we can get away with having rather mediocre leadership…if you think of the Great Presidents of the US, many of them were made great by events beyond their control and how they handled them. Without the Civil War, Abe Lincoln would have been just another of a string of so-so Presidents we don’t remember all that well from the mid to late 19th century, wouldn’t he? Events make Presidents great in the annals of history, not personalities and oftentimes these events aren’t things controled by the President, be it war, economic depression, and other factors. And given American political, military, and economic stability as compared to less fortunate places, we should count ourselves lucky we have the luxury to worry about stuff like gun violence, abortion, and stem cells. When you’re poor and hungry, when there’s civil war likely to get you killed tomorrow, when you’ve never known electric lights or indoor plumbing, these issues don’t count for much.

We may not find out exactly what Bush is made of without a major, and I mean major crisis…and regardless of how you feel about him, I don’t think you want that to happen. Most of what we worry about now is really penny ante stuff compared to past woes like flu epidemics, state secession, and the fear that the new part of the country you’re moving to may have legitimately pissed off people already living there for centuries.

America may not be riding high among other nations, but the key to perhaps winning some of them over isn’t to let them dictate our policies, but rather to try and get them to compromise a bit more along the lines of our own (your guess is as good as mine what that means).

Why should I care more about someone in say, Arizona, (I live in New York) than I do about someone half way around the world? What makes the fact that one is an American so dammned important? Our country should do as much as possible to improve the lives of all people. This look-out-for-number-one mentality may sound good on the surface, but the decisions our government makes concerning the environment, arms control, etc. could very well come back to haunt us. And that bullshit rhetoric he used to stir up fear of an oil shortage was shameful. Preserve the American way of life, indeed! We strut around demanding cheap gasoline, as if it were some God-given right.