U.S. - The Evil Empire

Welcome to Great Debates. I’m glad to have POV from another country.

Cuban Embargo – From a moral POV one can argue that the poor Cuban people are saddled with a dreadful dictatorship. The emmbargo was an attempt to promote a better government, short of war. Unfortunately, it hasn’t worked. But, doing nothing doesn’t seem right either.

The UN is an important institution, which has fallen into decline. Withholding payments was a method to promote improved operations, and it had some degree of success. IMHO it’s better to try to fix the UN than to simply ignore its problems.

I’d be interested in cites. I know that many scientists consider global warming to be a big problem, but I’ve never seen a study saying that the Kyoto accord would have a big impact.

This is a subject often debated here. Many of us approve of the death penalty.

4a. The United States does not have school shootings “regularly,” by any stretch of the imagination. They are, in fact, exceedingly rare. In fact, there have been fewer since the Littleton incident in April 1999 than in the three years preceeding it. The total number of school-shooting fatalities since Littleton is 6. The total number of multiple-victim shootings (injuries and fatalities) since Littleton is 4. If this constitutes “regularity,” I’d like to know what “rare” is. Source.

Furthermore, violent crime in schools has dropped from a rate of 48 per 1,000 in 1992 to 43 per 1,000 in 1998, and continues to fall. Germany is not without its own school violence problems either, and I won’t even get into soccer riots.

4b. The United States already has several thousand gun laws at the Federal, state and county levels. Exactly how much more gun control would you like to see enacted?

Speaking of German school violence . . . (all bolding mine)

Because there are agreements about free trade - and the US are the nation that insists on it most vehemently, except for cases in which this would mean disadvantages for America. But the worst thing is the US started compelling foreign companies to stop trading with Cuba - this fatal Helms-Burton stuff.

Russia is full legal successor of the USSR. Nobody doubts that, since Russia did also take over Soviet obligations.
Anyway, at least ONE American who whould not argue like this :wink:

I quote Article 3:

IMHO “Everyone” also includes condemned murderers. I know many Americans approve of death penalty, but Europeans mostly consider it simply disgusting and barbaric.

(OK, one could say the liberty guarrantee also forbids prisons, but in this case it certainly means “political” liberty. But the guarrantee to live certainly forbids death penalty.

“Prosperous” not for the entire country; quite a big part of US population lives in extreme poverty. That’s exactly what I meant when saying the social security system doesn’t work.

Lower tax rates don’t do any benefit to low-income citizens who wouldn’t have to pay taxes anyway. Europe grants them enough welfare to live (forgive me my poetic words) in dignity.

With enormous fees. OK, I know there are scholarships and programs that help students and let them pay the fees later on, when they get good income, but man yhere think a fair and socially active State should provide free education.

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but no nation is perfect.
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Wow…what a concession :wink:

pldennison: I knowe there is violence at German schools, and I also know high school shootings don’t happen twice a day, not even in America. But they do happen from time to time, and we here think this famous Right To Bear Arms should be confined. I know there are gun control laws in the US, but it’s still absolutely no problem even for lunatics to get hold of a gun. Now you know what extent of gun control I’d suggest.

And I got UN Press Release GA 9814 about the General Assembly and the condemnation of the Cuba Embargo:

Schnitte,

While I admire your enthusiasm, please spare our browsers in the future and simply provide a link to long documents in the future. We will refer to them, honest. :slight_smile:

In any case your original arguement was that “It (US) never obeys international law except in cases in which int’l law favours the US,” my purpose was to show that the US was technically not in violation of International Law with the examples you gave. The resolution passed by the UN General Assembly was non-binding and thus not a part of International Law.

The US is still seeking to recover property that was lost as a result of Castro’s seizure of power. Many goods that are produced in Cuba are produced in factories and on property that was seized without any compensation to the original owners. The US being a capitalist nation takes offense to that. Entire threads could be devoted to this subject and whether or not the many US justifications for the embargo are valid.

I hope there are a lot of Americans who argue this. But I can find folks who intentionally cast doubt on Russia’s legal succession to the rights and treaties of the former USSR

“The former U.S.S.R. has not existed for almost a decade, and at present the U.S. has the distinction of being the only existing party to the treaty and also the only nation complying with its terms.”

from:

Again, I make the point only to show that it is possible to argue that the US will not be in violation of International Law.

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I quote Article 3:

As you note, you’re intrepretation of this section would also make it illegal to jail offenders for any crime. I don’t understand your logic here.

What do you mean by “quite a big part of the US” ? Compared to world economic levels, the US does quite well.

http://www.un.org/Depts/unsd/social/inc-eco.htm

Could it do better? Sure. But it’s poverty levels are not anything to equate it, as the OP does, to an evil empire.

I’ve tried, honest to God, but somehow that link didn’t work (I noticed after pushing “Preview Reply”), so I posted it in full length.

I know that, and believe me I also know Cuba is from the human rights point of view certainly not a primer. But isn’t it interesting that, contrary to your opinion, there is a considerable number of people (and governments) who think what the US are doing is not 100 % clean? 167-3 vote is pretty clear, as well as nine resolutions. Even if this is non-binding, it shows that Washington obviously does not care about what the rest of the world thinks, and this is in my eyes an attitude that could support the Evil Empire theory.

EVERYONE does not equal EVERYONE minus CONDEMNED MURDERERS.
The jails-are-forbidden-argument is somewhat tricky, I admit, but it is the predominant opinion among the human rights movement that executions are not very nice.
ai has, additionally to the executions, many times reported about (hard word, but adequate) torture and abuse of prisoners in US jails.

The US as a whole, but internally there are huge differences between Rich and Poor. I have a statistic survey which you will certainly doubt at hand and it says that 13.7 % of US population have an income below the poverty line.

That is certainly correct. I simply condensed everything I have ever found wrong about America into one posting, although it doesn’t render you “evil”, like executions. The thing that really makes the US an arrogantly behaving superpower (“Since the Roman Empire, no country has had a position that unchallanged for such a long time as the US have now” Newsmagazine Der Spiegel in a cover story about America’s role in the world) is the way they treat other nations.

Please do NOT see me as a German patriot; I disprove patriotism and nationalism of any kind, and unfortunately there are a lot of people in Germany who see themselves as “patriots” (this word has rightfully quite a negative bias here, and so has the sentence “I am proud to be a German”). There are many things I hate about Germany, believe me, as well as there are many things I love about America; but unfortunately, the foreign policy is not among those things.
(just in case my postings have created acertain impression about my political views)

German justice was widely criticized in the US after the man who stabbed tennis star Monica Seles received NO time in jail. There are two sides to the question.

USA sux man!

So if I may trim your arguement down, and please correct me if trim incorrectly, one of your arguements against the actions of the US is that it does not care about how the rest of the world thinks?

The history of the US is almost based on going against the grain of world opinion. When the US formed, democracy was something the rest of the world wanted no part of. I don’t believe it would be wise to base what is right upon world opinion.

The charge that execution is uncivilized is a more serious one. It is only in the last twenty years that most European governments have stopped their own executions so it is with an air of suspection that the US views the indignant righteous cries of these governments to stop our barbaric practice. We are where you were only a few decades ago and you didn’t seem so evil to us or yourselves at that time.

Again, execution is a thread in its own right. Ultimately, if you feel that this is all that it takes for a nation to be branded “evil” then that is your opinion. It will take more than our habit of occasionally putting a murderous thug into a painless eternal sleep to convince me of that. (And if you start that thread you’ll find I’m actually on the fence on this issue.)

Our foreign policy changes quite frequently (its ongoing inconsitancy drives me nuts) so if you don’t like what we are doing now just wait a few years and we’ll be doing somthing different.

In the US the term “patriotism” still has a largely positive meaning and most Americans are proud of being Americans and are willing to do their part to make it a better nation.

And believe me, I see you in a far better light as a debater and thinker than our newest poster, Red Rat.

But the way of “doing otherwise” has changed; before WWI, America was well-known for its isolationism: Forget Europe, what’s going on there is none of our business. It was covered by the Monroe Doctrine and Europe could get along with it very well. Nowadays, US don’t care about what the rest of the world thinks, but now they are engaged in world politics very closely.
(Interestingly enough, the US only follow one part of the Monroe Doctrine - no European activities in America - but not the other one, no American activities in Europe).

Again, it’s the foreign policy that makes a nation evil, I gave the executions as an example on how little Washington “sweeps its own yard” when criticizing others.

The concrete strategy changes, sure, but the style is permanently felt as very arrogant in Europe.

I know that. I only wanted to eliminate possible conclusions that I see everything American as evil and everything German as holy.

Good grief, not the “Cuban Blockade” issue again. Look, do you understand the difference between an embargo and a blockade? In a blockade one stops (or attempts to stop) ALL ships from entering the ports of the enemy. You do this by capturing or shooting them. The US is not boarding the ships of nations that trade with Cuba.

No, the US is embargoing Cuba. That means that we do not trade with Cuba. How is that a violation of Cuban rights? Do we have an obligation to trade with Cuba? Please explain to me how the US should be forced to trade with Cuba against our will.

We do not wish to trade with Cuba because of Cuba’s dictatorial goverment, just like many people refused to trade with South Africa due to South Africa’s racist social policies. Please explain why every country has an obligation to trade with countries they find repugnant.

I do know the difference, my friend. Of course nobody can force America to trade with Cuba. But the Americans cannot prevent other people to do it, right? But they want to. Helms-Burton provides for penalties for every non-American company that trades with Cuba <b> even outside the United States</b>. If America doesn’t want to buy Cuban goods, OK, but if we want to, why do you want to stop it?
There intensive trade between the EU and the Republic of Cuba, but it could be even better if this disastrous and villainous (peottry again) act were not there.

Actually that’s pretty accurate. It interferes in my ability, as a foreign trader, to trade with both Cuba and the US.

As for the merits of the legislation, even PJ O’Rouke refers to it as the “Bacardi Act”.

I don’t know if “arrogance” and an inconsistent to the point of arbitrary foreign policy equates with “evil”. The United States does act in a heavy handed fashion even towards its allies (see Super 301). I don’t think that makes it “evil”.

Having a German perspective on this is really interesting: the US has been shifting its position towards Europe recently, and I can’t help but think that this is in response to the perception by the new administration that Europe is a threatening trade block with its own priorities. Have a banana, anyone?

This has to be one of the biggest jokes of all time. Let’s see… the Cuban government initiates in the Cuban courts a lawsuit against another country … Hmmm… without having read the results I am going out on a limb here to predict the Cuban government won. The Cuban government is so perfect they never lose a lawsuit.

Schnitte, I welcome your German perspective on U.S. foreign and internal policy. Regardless of whether or not I agree with all your points, it is refreshing to hear the perspective of another human being from a substantially different society.

Your points on Cuba clearly illustrate the stubborn and narrow “my country, right or wrong” attitude that pervades U.S. foreign policy. We have capriciously supported oppressive dictatorships, as illustrated by our involvement with Noriega in Panama, yet we self-righteously proclaim very similar dictatorships that do not suit our political interests “bad”. We are very willing to impose severe embargos over long periods of time, resulting in extreme poverty for the common people of our target “enemies”.

We justify the selfish autonomy with which we conduct foreign affairs as compatible with our pioneering spirit. But we suffer the consequences of this attitude and behavior domestically. A selfish, uncivilized attitude dominates in our society. This attitude renders our citizenry highly vulnerable to political manipulation by our government. Our government diverts our attention from the costs of their extending benefits to special-interest groups by proposing programs such as “welfare reform” to “remove lazy people from government subsities”. Included in the affected segment of society are a substantial number of women and children trying to escape domestic violence, individuals with severe physical and/or mental handicaps, and racial groups that have been precluded from a great number of professional opportunities over a long period of time.

We are the only major developed country without a child care policy that promotes the provision of a healthy and safe daycare environment for the children of working parents. I believe this clearly reflects our view of children as a liability, as opposed to asset to society.

I would encourage others to reflect on the observations of Schnitte prior to responding immediately in a “self-defense” mode. We live in a world community, and we need to communicate effectively with our neighbors.

It is felt by many American policy makers that having a foreign policy of isolationism while being an expanding economic power lead to being attacked at Pearl Harbor. It is better to be engaged with the world so that we have a better understanding of everyone’s position.

The ability of the US to engage in European affairs is entirely up to the Europeans. The US military presence there exist only at their will and the US ability to interfere in European politics is granted to the US by the Europeans. Indeed one of the reasons that European leaders dislike Bush is that they fear he will lead the US on an isolationist course.

European leadership do not seek less US engagement, what they want is increased US multilaterialism. US involvement in any European chosen course of action helps increase the odds of success. Bush’s habit of ignoring their wishes, of not being involved in European based initiatives has made him unpopular in Europe.

It’s quite a leap to compare China’s secretive judicial system that habitially tortures and executes political prisoners to that of the US judicial system. Flawed though the US system may be, we are simply not in the same league in terms of numbers, openess, or fairness.

If we are to wait until the US is a perfect nation so that we may then bring attention to the horrible treatment of other peoples by their governments how many such crimes would pass unnoticed?

Of course Europe knows it cannot renounce partnership with America, but it would appreciate a US government that does not act as the big leader everyone has to look up to but as a partner who is ready and willing to respect its allies’ needs. And Europe’s trust towards Washington has suffered severely after the Commission’s sensational report about the activities of the legendary Echelon surveillance system; it is generally believed that Echelon supplied Boeing with information about Airbus’ strategies, which led to the failure of a big Airbus deal in favour of Boeing.
This might sound as garbage told by conspiracy fanatics, but there is strong evidence for it, and the Commission believes it and “strongly recommended” using better cryptography.
Not a foreign policy matter, but it damaged the US-EU relations.

There isn’t much the US can do about the Commission’s strange report. Did the report actually have any evidence for their fears or was it simply determined that since the US had the capability, industrial espionage must have occured?

On the other side of the coin, I once served on a security committee for the Procter & Gamble company. We had considerable evidence that France used its security agencies for corporate espionage against foreign companies.

Hairy Potter, I can only assume that you are a hardcore liberal. You say that Bush stole the election. You must have not even have taken part in the election. Only a complete fool would have said that Bush stole the election. Gore was the one who almost stole the election. He was a very sore loser - and he still is. There is a book called How Gore Tried To Steal The Election; I suggest that you read it. Although, you will probably try say that it is completely false. It’s not.

You also seem to not like the U.S.A. You call them the Evil Empire. We are far from itn - except all the liberals who try to instill racism and all the rest of their evil ploys and government spending on idiotic scientific government research.