U.S. vs U.K. Rock and Roll -- No Contest

Great Debates
1

The local radio station is featuring a top 100 countdown of the greatest U.S.-only rock hits.

Now, this leads to a topic discussed several weeks ago with me and some friends.
Is it true that the U.S. can’t hold a candle to the U.K. when it comes to rock influences?
If we match their Top 5 against our Top 5, it would look something like:

U.K.: -the Beatles, -the Stones, -the Who, -Clapton, -Zeppelin

versus

U.S.: -Elvis, -Hendrix, -Springsteen, -the Dead, hmmm…,
the Eagles???/ Chuck Barry??? absolutely no consensus on who our Top 5 would be.

Also bearing in mind that the U.K. boasts a number of prospects waiting in the wings, to wit, -Elton John, Rod Stewart, Queen, Ozzie/Black Sabbath, Bowie, Sex Pistols, and the Kinks.

We couldn’t even determine if our Top 5 (whoever they may be) could match up with the second team.

So, the question that remains, does Brit rock kick our collective butts on this matter?

I know if we work in Motown or Blues, it may seem a closer contest, but it seems on rock, as in Classic Rock, we have to give this one to them. Do we??

2

I wouldn’t say so really. First off Rock was essentially invented in the United States, as much as I love the Beatles, and I do love them, I would have to say that Chuck Barry was a more influential figure in the field of Rock and Roll.
Also I note that many of the UK bands you mentioned were part of the British Invasion, which was very influential, yes, but there have been other Rock movements. Nirvana, for example, or the recent ska movement comes to mind.

3

Initial Entry, the “recent ska” movement was almost entirely a US phenomenon (for example, the UK has had two singles by No Doubt and basically very little else). In addition, ska was actually a British genre from the early 1980s, with mixed-race bands like The Specials.

Regarding the OP, I would say that the US was the spark for many musical genres - especiall rock and roll - but that the UK developed them more. So it’s a draw!

Chuck Berry more influential than The Beatles? Debatable. Nirvana? Yes, the grunge trend was purely US-driven, I’ll grant you that. But where the US leads in genres like rap, grunge and to an extent “chart soul” I would give the UK the edge in dance music (of all types) and “independent” music (for want of a better label - that kind of Blur/Oasis/Pulp/Stone Roses/Charlatans thing).

4

Nah, most bands of the British Invasion of the sixties were emulating U.S. acts in one way or another (and doing it extraordinarily well, by the by). That doesn’t mean they weren’t very inventive (Beatles) or very good (Stones, Beatles), but it was originally a U.S. form of music.

As for the 5th U.S. band, I’d take either Creedence or the Velvet Underground. Also, I’m not so sure about your inclusion of Clapton on the UK list. The Kinks or Cream (w/ Clapton) would be a better choice.

5

And then there were the US bands who emulated UK ones.

Heavy rock was pretty much a Brit invention whose most obvious roots go to the Kinks and was taken further by such as the Spencer-Davis group.

Of course we could go back to any period and move the goalposts if needed.

Much of the rock’n’roll phenomenon can easily be traced back to big band boogie right back in the 30’s.

The US is the most significant source of modern popular music but we Brits have had our moments.

Sadly this is crtainly not the case at the moment with the rubbish we are currently churning out such as the young teen fan groups.
I haven’t seen any who play their music nor any who write it, all they do is dance to some image consultants drivel.

If you are not familiar then I will spare you by not naming them.

Some things are best not revealed.

6

Well, considering that he basically invented rock and roll, I would have to say…Hell, yes!. And let me give a nod to Little Richard as well, who was also hugely influential.

Some American acts not mentioned in earlier posts:
[list]
[li]Little Richard (See above.) Along with Chuck Berry, converted fused boogie and the blues into Rock and Roll.[/li][li]R.E.M. Opened the airwaves to alternative music, and paved the way for Nirvana, Pearl Jam, and others.[/li][li]Pearl Jam (Since we’re on the subject.)[/li][li]The Beach Boys. (I know, I know, but they are highly respected among musicians.)[/li][li]Bob Dylan. Brought poetic sensibilities into rock and roll lyrics. Without Dylan, the Beatles would have spent the rest of their careers singing about holding girls’ hands, yeah, yeah yeah.[/li][li]Prince, depending on your definition of rock and roll.[/li][li]The Ramones. Who really invented punk rock, my friends? It started as a New York phenomenon, then moved to London. (And the Brits stole the Mohawk haircut from Travis Bickle, by the way…)[/li][li]The Talking Heads. (Speaking of CBGB’s…)[/li][li]The Doors[/li][li]Almann Brothers/ Lynyrd Skynyrd. Returned rock and roll to its southern boogie roots in the 70’s.[/li][li]Carl Perkins, Jerry Lee Lewis, The Everly Brothers. (All very influential on the British Invasion bands. In fact, I believe Paul McCartney and John Lennon billed themselves for a time as “The British Everly Brothers.”)[/li][li]Red Hot Chili Peppers Brought the Funk back into rock and roll, and have produced a long string of hits.[/li]
The list could go on and on…

7

Chuck Berry and Little Richard - okay, their influence on rock and roll is undeniable.

REM and Talking Heads - well, I love both, but did they really define a genre or influence the development of music?

Beach Boys/Bob Dylan - yes, I’ll go with those too.

Prince - nope. Might have started well, but has been nothing but terrible for years.

Ramones - undoubtedly great, but if you’re talking about punk as a genre, surely the Sex Pistols are the band that really added the anti-authoritarian spin?

RHCP - please God no.

8

[list]
[li]The Pretenders. Includes Brits, but American Chrissy Hynde is obviously the driving force.[/li][li]Stevie Nicks. Responsible for Fleetwood Mac’s best output, as well as some impressive solo work.[/li][li]Janis Joplin. Short career, but extremely influential.[/li][li]Aretha Franklin. Does soul music count in this debate? Cause if it does, I’ve got a whole bunch of acts to add…Not to mention funk…Or rap/hip-hop…[/li]The Byrds/ Crosby, Stills & Nash. OK, not a female in the bunch, but I forgot to mention the influence of these two groups in the earlier post…

9

[list]
[li]Buddy Holly. First rock and roll artist to produce his own records. Also the first (I believe) to introduce orchestral arrangements to rock and roll. The Beatles owe him big-time on both counts, and his influence is widely recognized among musicians.[/li][li]Bo Diddly. From whom Holly borrowed his guitar style.[/li][li]Roy Orbison[/li][li]Eddie Cochran. Under-appreciated genius of rockabilly.[/li]
And yes, R.E.M. led a genre. It’s was called, at the time, “college radio,” or “college rock,” since college radio stations were the only place you could hear it in the early 80’s. It later came under the heading of “alternative rock,” meaning that it was an alternative to commercial radio, and an alternative to the big labels. (This was all before Nirvana ever appeared on the scene.) R.E.M. was the acknowledged leader of this movement, and were often referred to as “the Beatles of alternative music.” They (not Nirvana) were the first “alternative music” band to break into mainstream radio, and their arrival on top 40 charts in the late 80’s sent record labels scurrying to sign bands then being played only on college radio. Thus were the doors opened for bands like Nirvana, Pearl Jam, The Red Hot Chili Peppers, et al. Michael Stipe was something of an older brother/uncle to both Kurt Cobain and Eddie Vedder, frequently offering them the benefit of his experience in the business. Both acknowledged the influence of R.E.M.

Bottom line: No R.E.M., and you might never have heard of the term “alternative music.”

The Talking Heads fused funk and punk to create “art rock”. They were very influential, both musically and in terms of visual style, though their top 40 success was limited.

10

God, of course I meant to include Dylan in OUR Top 5 but let’s recap:

Their Top 5 includes Beatles, Stones, Clapton, Zeppelin, the Who (although I would personally put Floyd ahead of The Who).

Our Top 5 is…
Elvis, Dylan, Chuck Berry, and…

Not the Beach Boys, please.
Hendrix, definitely but not Buddy Holly

You see what I’m geting at?
We can’t even suit up five that everyone can agree with and theirs, despite some minor tweaking here and there, appear to be untouchable.

I know this is the 4th of July weekend and all but I think we Yanks have to concede this one.

11

No we don’t.

Maybe the Brits had more “classic” rock acts than the states, after the sixties the U.S. clearly wins.

R.E.M., Nirvana, Blondie, Talking heads, and others blew away english modern rock competition. (Can anyone listen to Oasis? really?)

Even in Classic rock; while the Beatles were in a class by themselves, no other band, including the who and the stones, came close to matching Hendrix, IMHO. If Hendrix had only had a decent rythym section! Also Dylan was and is a songwriter who is matched only by Lennon. The Only Brit dinosaur band I can listen to is Cream.

Let’s also not forget that Rock was invented on this side of the pond, and that numerous rock influences, like blues and country, are almost purely american art forms.

12

What no The Clash !!! (London Calling being Rolling Stone’s ‘Album of the 80’s’).

Personally, I’d rather have Elvis Costello than Presley AND Dylan.

I have always felt that Grunge was just village idiot son of punk rock – but at a time when the States was more ready for it (but, of course, UK punk has it’s origins in The Bowery, NYC).

For me, The Velvet Underground are in the top 3 most influential US bands and certainly more important than The Who.

Hendrix was playing in Greenwich Village bars for a very long time before Chas Chandler found him, brought him to the UK and ….the rest is history (unfortunately he also died here so the credit is some what circumscribed). Far and away the single most important rock musician.

Anyone for Janis Joplin (first female ‘superstar’ of the rock era/influential beyond her field/an original/great voice) ?

On the bottom five: Tiny Tim vs. The Spice girls – tough call.

13

Oops, and how can people put up Blondie, Red Hot Chillie Peppers, Talking Heads, Creedence etc, etc but no one mentions Zappa ?
(p.s Stevie Nicks is English - or was, i think)

14

Pish-posh!

The Who are hardly untouchable. What have they done that’s so influential? How many hits did they have? You’d have to struggle to come up with enough for a “Greatest Hits” album. Heck, if you’re going to stay so gol-durned fixated on “Classic Rock” to the exclusion of all other genres, Creedence Clearwater Revival had more chart success.

Clapton is over-rated. There, I said it. I have never understood why this guy is hailed as some sort of rock and roll deity. Surely not for his voice! He can play the guitar? Sure, but he is no more a virtuoso than many others. How does one measure virtuosity? Hendrix had him beat a mile! Plus at least Hendrix never did lame-ass covers of “I Shot the Sheriff” or “Living on Tulsa Time.” What is Clapton’s masterpiece? “Cocaine?” :rolleyes: “Layla?” Gosh, I can hardly wait 'til he trots out another self-cover of that one. How long can he milk that cow?

London_Calling, I will concede the greatness of The Clash and Elvis Costello, but y’all stole Punk just like you stole Rock and Roll. What’s next? Are the Brits going to try to out-Rap us??? :wink:

15

spoke,

Rap - i thought this was about music ?

Is it too late for David Bowie to see off David Bryne
(everyone i’ve spoken to and who went said Bowie was truly awesome at Glastonbury)?

Clapton ? - give me Jeff Beck any day.

16

Clapton is God. Hendrix had him beat by a mile? No way, Hendrix was a great on the electric, but couldnt touch Clapton on accustic, the blues, slide, ect…

17

HomeSlice, you are loopy. :wink: I’ll put Stevie Ray Vaughn up against your boy Clapton any day. (See, America can beat Clapton with one of our second-teamers).

London_Calling, I am in agreement with you 100% on Rap. It ain’t music. Poetry, maybe. Music, no.

So, does this mean y’all promise not to steal it?

18

There were three acts that basically created modern rock in the '60’s.

The Beatles–who showed how the studio could be used to its full potential, and that pop songs could go to strange new places.

Hendrix–who showed that the electric guitar was alot more than an acoustic you could play real loud.

Dylan–who showed that lyrics could at least approach profundity, and be about something more than girls and cars.

That’s U.S. 2; U.K. 1.

It’s a silly argument though. I will gladly concede the greatness of many British artists like the Beatles, the Clash, Richard Thompson, Billy Bragg, Motorhead, etc. etc. There’s talent and mediocrity on both sides of the pond.

BTW, just saw Motorhead live at the 9:30 club (DC) last tuesday, along with Nashville Pussy. They Both ROCKED!!. a good example of U.S. U.K. collaboration. Check 'em out if they’re in you’re neck of the woods. My ears still hurt.

Motorhead: the one band Punks and Metalheads can agree on.

19

It’s a deal, spoke - as long as you promise to not steal the English language.

Don’t know what you put in that Home Slice but keep eating, it might all come full circle and you’ll begin to make some sense.

Rap - truly an original form and i agree, it doesn’t seem to sit comfortably in any one category of expression.

Goodnight from the most musically influential city on the planet…he he

20

Actually, it’s a Jamaican musical tradition, pre-dating reggae. (It was a sort of proto-reggae.) Yep, the Brits swiped ska, too.

And now they’re trying to swipe Stevie Nicks!!! Do you Brits have no shame??!! :wink:

Stevie is American through and through. From out west somewhere. (Colorado maybe? I can’t remember.) True, she fell in with that Brit guy, Mick Fleetwood, but…

English? What’s that? I speak Southern (with a hillbilly accent).