Actually, I thought Dawkins made the point(s) very well, it was not an appeal to authority, he just said what I feel succinctly.
But (and I’m guessing here), Dawkins would say that “your” Professor Emeritus could suck his fucking dick.
I agree.
And on preview, December, give it up mate, between the myriad strawmwn there’s barely a point left to see.
How much time was it Blix and UNSCOM said they needed to complete the inspections before they withdrew? If I’m not mistaken they said either 2 or 3 months.
So the US military, now in (admittedly not total and utter) control of Iraq, needs more time to search the country than UNSCOM would have? Providing of course Blix’s schedule was accurate.
The scoreboard as of June 8, 2003:
Total WMDs Found:
0
Total People Killed In War:
5,000-10,000
I doubt Professor Dawkins would be that crude. You, however, are clearly the one espousing that position, to which I say:
How utterly childish. Do grow up.
WWGWBDWWMD?
Well, he certainly has them now, so…
He would if he was posting here, ya fucking moron.
From the Rice and Powell spin doctoring article-- more bad new for the Bushies:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32394-2003Jun8.html?nav=hptop_tb
Gee, it could have been because of all the (now exposed) heavy lobbying by Cheney and the Chickenhawks could it?
Oops, we lied about something else other then WMD and Al Queda ties:
There were plenty of explanations from Rice and Powell, most of which were barely plausable to me, but the Pubbie apologists may dig them Click the link and enjoy.
I believe that the issue of WMD is relevant. Throughout the resolution passed by congress many reasons were cited for believing that saddam was a shithead that needed to be kicked out. BUT, the main issues were his ties to terrorism, his direct involvement in 9/11 and his continued production of WMD that he planned to use on the U.S. or give to terrorists to use.
If Bush and his cronies falsified or fudged this information, then I believe the war was illegal. Read the authorization. It does not say, we get to kick saddams ass because he is a bad dude and mean to his citizens or because we can and we want to. It doesn’t even matter that he was in violation of the UN resolutions. He had to be a threat to us. The authorization says if he poses a threat to us AND – not or-- is in violation of the UN resolutions.
SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
http://www.house.gov/becerra/IRAQ_resolution.pdf
I don’t believe Saddam was a threat to the U.S., and I don’t believe that our administration believed that he was a threat. I don’t think oil was the reason for the war either.
I think the main reason for the war was to find a permanent home for military bases in the mideast, and to ensure that the oil producing countries did not dump the American dollar for the EU dollar.
Our current administration believes we need new markets and a guarantee that our dollar will continue to be worth something. A well developed oil producing country was a nice bonus. Unfortunately the Bush administration misjudged the condition of the country. It’s no longer the country Rumsfeld knew when he cosied up to Saddam in the 80’s. It’s a dowdy, broken down wreck of a country. This slowed down the Bush agenda some, but they will catch up sooner or later.
The middle east is the new wild west, and we plan to overrun it just like we did the American west. The “Indians” better get out of the way because here we come!
The first item may very well be true, and if so is an enormous miscalculation. However, I can credit. The last item, a change from the USD to the Euro is pure illiteracy. Invading Iraq is not going to effect whether the commodity is priced in dollars or Euros. If the Euro comes to be seen as a better unit of exchange by the markets, the change will happen, if not, it will not.
Nor do I believe even this Administration is economically illiterate enough to base policy on such idiocy.
Again, economic illiteracy. Invading countries to obtain markets is neither cost effective nor in an era of more or less freer trade, particularly effective. Nor does invading Iraq do anything at all to make the dollar worth something or not.
Indeed the deficits implied by higher spending and tax cuts rather put pressure on further dollar depreciation.
Illiteracy.
Well, that’s pretty bloody comforting, isn’t it.
Well if there are drooling morons who are thinking along these lines, they are in for some fairly large surprises.
Welcome to the SDMB, mudhollar. I see you’ve met Collounsbury. Coll is one of our most knowledgeable and interesting members. He’s also one of the most annoying. Please don’t be too put off by his personality. I’ve found that the best way to deal with him is to appreciate the information and perspective that he offers while just skipping past the insults and hyperbole.
I found you comments very interesting and I hope you will continue to contribute to these boards.
Seems to me that IF Iraq had such a vast arsenal of WMD as we were led to believe, they would have been found by now.
Even with all the satelitte images that are taken every day and night, they still can’t find a single vial (as Powell displayed)
Iraq did turn over a bunch of documents to the UN (US), but we kept on asking for proof of destroying these - did they want the ashes or burnt casings or what?
Blix said the US must be patient while the UN was hunting these.
Now we’re supposed to be patient while they have free reign to look anywhere and anytime.
We were duped into believing these WMD were already placed and ready to launch at a moments notice to fly over the desert with pinpoint accuracy and hit Israel and maybe even WDC.
The US ain’t lookin good if they don’t produce the goods they screamed about.
Maybe they can PLANT them and make us believe that too.
I never had confidence in the WMD rationale for this damn fool war, not because I thought that Iraq didn’t have a single B/C weapon, but because I didn’t see any way that they could have amounts and configurations that could constitute a threat against the US.
But I sure as heck expected some theatre type chemical weapons to be found (or - in my nightmares - used!) and I for one was girding my loins for a protracted debate on what it took for B/C weapons to actually constitute a threat serious enough to act as a casus belli. I am quite surprised that absolutely nothing has been found.
And as enjoyable as it is to rub the hawks’ noses in the absence of WMD, right now the entire case is on shaky ground the second someone finds half a dozen rusty chemical shells on a forgotten shelf somewhere. Fox et al. will scream “Bush vindicated” loudly enough that people will believe it - people want to fell good about what their country is doing.
Sure, it’s pretty good fun now, I’m actually enjoying the spectacle immensely. But if so much as a rifle bullet dipped in Windex is found in Iraq now, it’ll be so damn easy to spin along the lines of “The critics made their case on the total absence of WMD, and they were wrong!” Don’t make it too easy for the bastards, guys…
Sure, but that’s standard procedure for the Bushistas – take any little ol’ thing you’ve got, and turn it into the Mt. Everest of evidence.
[ul]
[li]“Saddam’s got ties with al Qaeda!”[/li](Yeah, they met just long enough for Saddam to tell them to bugger off…)
[li]“Saddam’s launching illegal SCUDs at the troops!!!”[/li](No, wait, those are UN-approved short-range FROGs, nevermind)
[li]“Saddam’s mobile bioweapons labs found!!!”[/li](even though the equipment’s all busted up, and lacks key components for making germs)
[/ul]
I mean, I fully expect to see “Saddam’s cache of bioweapons FOUND!!!” any day now – and at the bottom of the page, in teeny-tiny type, will be the footnote explaining that what we found were two moldy slides in an abandoned high school chemistry classroom…
True dat.
That was funny.
I think it can categorically be asserted at this point, though, that far being an ‘immenent danger to US citizens in the United States’ with his WoMD, the only reason he was any level of danger at all to US citizens is 'cause we put 'em in his backyard, and even then SH did not use WoMD on them. So, if he had them at all, to claim that he was about to use them at citizens on US soil is obvious hoakum.
The rifle bullet with Windex was also shamelessly stolen, but damn if I can remember from whom. A couple of searches didn’t yield anything. I’d be happy to acknowledge whoever came up with it originally, though…
Precisely.
I second the above also.
But there has been a subtle shift. Note the recent speech, insisting that Saddam had a weapons program. What constitutes a weapons program? Any document that discusses how such weapons might be made, regardless whether or not there is any evidence that they had been made.
Everyone in Iraq with an IQ above cottage cheese knows how to make the Occupying Powers smile upon them: come up with a document. It won’t be examined too rigourously. A couple hours on the net, a bit of formatting and there you have it: a weapons program.
Note also that the previous weapons hunting team has been withdrawn, to be replaced with a new weapons team, the new! improved! weapons team that apparently wasn’t previously available. Not, of course, a UN team, whose reliability and impartiality are suspect.
And they will get away with it. God help us, we are stupid.
Hans Blix confirms Bush Administration pressure to suppoty their WMD shuck and jive:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030611/ap_on_re_eu/britain_blix_2
Swell.