UK users of the NHS - show of hands

As a counterpart to a general doper poll about healthcare, and the arguments currently in the US press about the NHS, I wanted to garner the opinions of UK residents/former UK residents who have lived with this service, about the UK’s health service - as well as anecdotal personal experience.

Options (hope I’ve been comprehensive enough):

  1. Strongly in favour of free-at-delivery healthcare as provided by the NHS as-is
  2. In favour of free-at-delivery healthcare as provided by the NHS but feel it could be improved
  3. In favour of free-at-delivery healthcare via a different mechanism (w/ suggestions)
  4. Opposed to free-at-delivery healthcare on principle

I’ll give you 2 - the principle is sound but there’s always room for improvement, in terms of eliminating bureaucracy, improving hospital standards, and speeding up NICE decisions.

Anecdotally: my experiences of the NHS to date have been astonishingly good, for minor injuries and minor ailments. I’ve never had to wait to see a doctor, or been denied any kind of treatment, and any prescriptions I’ve needed have always been available immediately, and heavily subsidised. I went to see a doctor this week after a fall down the stairs, and got an appointment within 30 minutes of calling the surgery. (I also have private health insurance via my company, which I’ve used once on referral from my NHS GP - but normally I just use the NHS.)

I lived in the UK from 2000-2007, and coming from South Africa, where the public health system was only for the poorest, and anyone who could afford it belonged to a medical aid scheme of some sort, it astounded me that such high quality of care could be provided for free to the whole population.

I heard plenty of stories about people waiting forever for some minor procedure, but the only direct experience I had was a friend who had a swelling on the side of his neck - he got put on a waiting list while the swelling grew and grew until it was extremely painful for him to eat or talk. Eventually it burst while he was on holiday in the West Indies somewhere and was treated by a local doctor (for which he had to pay). My sister-in-law had a horrific birth experience in the UK, but our two births (one live, one stillborn) were excellent experiences (in as far as losing a baby can be excellent).

On the other end of the scale, when my uncle’s lung cancer was diagnosed, he had an appointment with the top specialist in the country within a week, was seen again the same week and the week after that… Things dropped off when they decided that it was inoperable. Likewise, when it was suspected that I had TB, I got CAT scans and MRI’s almost immediately, when the tests came back negative, it took me months to get an appointment at the lung clinic.

It seems to me that there is a lot of regional variation, and that while the emergency care is good, when you are in no danger, you go on a list. Once you are under care, you are well looked after, but waiting can be a bitch.

I guess that makes me a 2 on your scale, but ideologically, I’m a 1.

Grim

1 or a 2 for me. Particularly in light of us having a private system to hand if we (the British) want / can afford to make use of it.

Disclaimer is that I’m in my 30s and never really been sick, so haven’t seen the NHS under pressure. My experiences with sports injuries / minor stuff has been fantastic. I guess the one major thing I’ve experienced indirectly is my wife giving birth - significant medical procedure really. I was impressed with the NHS before, during and after.

I saw a hint of the NHS limitations when trying to get allergy medicine for hay fever etc. There is a superb drug that completely kills these allergies, but it is expensive. So the doctors are instructed to work the patient through useless shit like claritin initially, and it’s v hard to get hold of the effective medicine IME. Now, hay fever is a completely trivial condition. I’d hate to see the same thinking applied to something serious. NICE is obviously a controversial issue with the NHS.

I presume you’re referring to Daniel Hannan’s recent interview?

I’ve had treatment both on the NHS and privately. My aunt would not be alive today were it not for the NHS. And many lives have been saved through NHS vaccination programmes. Sure the NHS can be improved - I had to have my wisdom teeth extracted privately because I wasn’t willing to wait 6 months so that was £1100 well spent - but to denigrate it for that reason is to let the perfect get in the way of the good.

BTW grimpixie, you can get health insurance that kicks in if the NHS can’t sort you out within a certain time.

A definite 4 for me. Whilst there should be some method for expensive life saving treatments to be available for those who really cannot afford it, the vast majority of medical procedures should be done on a health insurance/ private cover basis. Even if you accept the idea of the NHS though, optional non-medical procedures like IVF should never ever be funded by the taxpayer.

Based on the premise that nothing is perfect, it would have to be 2. But from my experiences, it would be 1.

They have been faultless in dealing with problems ranging from life threatening illnesses, to the rather more mundane; I recently had a very painful toothache. I phoned my NHS dentist at 8.30am. They *apologised *that they wouldn’t be able to see me until 2.00pm. (Normally they aim for no more than a 2-3 hour delay). I needed root canal work, for which they charged me £46.00. (Unless you fit in to certain categories, dentistry isn’t free on the NHS - just vastly cheaper than going privately).

I mention this episode because I heard on the radio this morning a debate in the US about Obama’s wish to have a more comprehensive NHS service, and some Americans were saying that if the UK model is a anything to go by, the wouldn’t want it because: ‘No wonder the British have such bad teeth: I’ve heard it takes six months to see a dentist.’ Not so.

Not only is using the NHS free or very low cost, but the quality of the service is very high. We’re lucky to have it.

I’m a 1 in principle and a 2 in practice.

My parents were poor (they never owned a car, for example). They received marvellous care when they needed it. I am perfectly happy to have paid taxes all my life to support them (and people like them).

How about inexpensive life-saving treatments for those who really cannot afford it?

Isn’t paying through taxes a form of health insurance?

Presumably you would set up an investigative committtee to assess people’s ability to pay before giving them treatment?
How would you fund it?

Another 1-2 here. I just cannot fathom the US system. The idea of having to ask my insurance company’s permission to make a doctor’s appointment just boggles the mind.

I can get a doctor’s appointment within an hour of calling. I’ve had one within 10 minutes (the surgery is on the corner of my street :slight_smile: ). My mother has had superb care for her (now sorted) breast cancer. Equally my father has had all manner of serious ailments (triple heart bypass, for instance). All excellent. All sorted. All free. Can’t argue with that.

The arguments raging in the States make the UK sound like a third world (and communist) country. They can’t really believe that, can they?

Agreed. Whenever I have a health issue I can be thankful that I live in country where I can see a trained, qualified physician within the day and not be out of pocket for the privilege (unless prescriptions are involved, but that’s neither here nor there).

I’ll go for a 2 - I grew up with socialised medical care (NZ) so the NHS was much the same (apart from part-charges which we do have in NZ).

We have had no complaints, but do also have private medical insurance for rapid elective treatment (my wife had a hysterectomy a few years back, going private was faster and used a better technique). I had my appendix out in NZ, and my kids both had appendectomies in the UK.

I would have problems in a US style system - I have chronic Hepatitis B - a pre-existing condition that would bump up insurance costs significantly (it has already prevented me from getting income insurance in the UK). While I have been waiting for some months for the local health care trust to approve my antiviral treatment regime, this is only because it is not actually urgent - my liver is fine even though my virus levels are up. So I can wait.

I do believe that NICE (the body that approves treatments for the NHS) needs to be clearer about the criteria that they use when they approve/decline/place restrictions on treatments. They work off a strict evidence based cost/benefit analysis, and this data can take time to accumulate, leading to frustrating delays for disease sufferers and their supporters. But this is a communication issue, and not a flaw in the system, really. I’d rather know that the treatments that I am paying for with my tax dollars (or getting because I am sick) actually have a measurable benefit compared to the costs. And it pushes the pharmaceutical industry to be more rigorous and not to push treatments with marginal benefits.

Si

Another 1/2 here. It certainly isn’t perfect and you do hear the occasional horror story (although usually in the right wing press) but my experiences with it have been fine.

I’ve personally always been fairly healthy so I’ve never needed to use it, but I’ve had a few recent experiences with family members which have turned me into a staunch defender of the NHS.

At the start of the year my 74 year old mother had her knee replaced. From her GP suggesting the procedure she was in hospital within a few weeks (i think) for the operation and was back out within a couple of days. She’s now far more mobile than she was and speaks very highly of the care she received. Since she’s a pensioner in Scotland she also gets free prescriptions.

A few months ago my Father was unexpectedly diagnosed with inoperable cancer. He was in a busy urology ward at the time of the diagnosis but given his quick deterioration at the time we asked that he be allowed to stay there rather than go through the stress of moving. He was given a private room on the ward the same day and received what in my opinion was an excellent standard of palliative care.

When he passed away a few days later he did so in comfort and with dignity, and I am extremely grateful for everything the staff did - in my opinion they could not have done any more for my Father or the rest of my family in the time he was in hospital.

Ideologically a 1, actually a 2 but only because I would change the bureaucracy. I’d get rid of most of the management and get back people like matrons, bring cleaning back under the direct control of the matron and get rid of all outsourcing and private involvement, etc. When you’re running something “not for profit”, you can’t really have anyone on the inside who is trying to make a profit. It throws the whole thing off. I would also like the NHS to stop spending my tax money paying to treat people who have chosen to go private and something has gone wrong (because that’s what happens; the private hospitals fuck it up and call an NHS ambulance). I’d also make people who choose to go abroad to get plastic surgery put up with whatever they get instead of making me pay when their vanity goes wrong.

My mother has had an ongoing health/chronic pain condition for twenty years. She received emergency medical care, including being flown back to the UK, free. She has received surgery, inpatient treatment, and then twenty years’ worth of medication, free. My father found a rodent ulcer on his ear - it was off in three days. When he needed a pacemaker, it was fitted two weeks later. When it developed a fault, it was refitted within a week. My mother had a suspicious mole; it was gone the next day. My partner’s mother would be dead if it wasn’t for the NHS. She had an emergency liver transplant and has been on all the drugs you need for that for the last fifteen years (including cyclosporin, famously expensive). She’s also had two heart attacks and a stroke, and came down with pneumonia earlier this year. There’s no way she could have afforded the care for any of these things if it hadn’t been free at the point of delivery. I needed dental treatment; I rang my dentist, it was non-emergency so I had to wait. All of five days. I then had a wisdom tooth out, for which I had to wait two weeks but again only because it wasn’t an emergency so I couldn’t take time off work. When I became concerned about the removal site, I rang the dentist and was seen a couple of hours later. When I had my own health issue, I saw a specialist within a month (it wasn’t life threatening, so I went on the normal waiting list), was booked in for surgery a week after that, received the surgery and after-care, and the drugs I needed for afterwards were free - not even a prescription charge, because they were given to me in hospital. I had a routine smear test last week. I rang on Friday, got an appointment for Monday, took a book in case I had to wait and only had time to find my page before they called me through. I was done straight away and came away with birth control for twelve months. All free. One of my sisters had gall bladder problems. She had to wait two months for surgery, which then had complications from which she almost died (and the hospital ended up paying her damages). However the emergency and intensive care she received meant that she survived and went on to be well enough to have two more children (free!). Another sister is currently receiving free fertility treatment. My brother had cellulitis and was seen by a specialist within three days.

No, I would not like to have paid for any of these things (other than the fact that I pay for them through my taxes). I would also not like my neighbour to have had to pay to have her very cute baby, or the elderly person I visit to have to pay for the care she needs, or the kids I teach whose parents can’t afford to send them to school properly equipped to have to pay for anything.

I heard that guy on the radio. Americans think British people have bad teeth only because our teeth aren’t messed with as a matter of routine. I have no doubt that if I smiled at you, some of you would recoil in horror, because my teeth aren’t straight or blindingly white. They are clean, healthy and functional, and frankly I don’t see the need for them to be in a perfect line. I was offered braces as a teenager. I declined. To be honest, I sometimes find American teeth quite scary, but I don’t go around criticising. If you’re happy with your mouth, then I’m happy for you. I don’t understand why this has to be such an issue with some people.

Oh, long post. Sorry.

My teeth aren’t in the state they should be because I didn’t look after them when I was younger. The NHS have sorted out that problem. If I don’t go for regular check ups, my NHS dentist will kick me out of his practice. Like yourself, my teeth aren’t USA-perfect, but they’re healthy.

I disagree. You’re trying to get best value for the taxpayer, and if going via a for-profit company gives you that, then you should. Otherwise you get relentless bureaucratic creep.

Again, I disagree: private patients also pay taxes, and they take significant load off the NHS in the first place. And are you really going to condemn someone to death or long-term disability because they happen to be in the wrong hospital?

Now, I do agree with this.

Again, another one chiming in with a 2. I think that the NHS has done a remarkable job, given their resources, and I find it a far preferable system to the one my brother lives with in the States.

Yes, there are always going to be negatives. My small complaints, personally, are that minor problems can sometimes take a while to sort out (things like physio for non urgent complaints) and that the communications channels between primary and secondary care can sometimes be tortuous. But you know what, if you don’t like waiting times, you can still pay for it directly if you have the money or take out private insurance. No one’s stopping you.

I have also had no complaints about the level of service I have received from my GP. I often get same day appointments and they’re free. Prescriptions cost £4! For anything. When I hear about people struggling to pay for birth control in the States, my mind boggles. Three months supply for me would be £4. It’s nothing.

When I had to have an operation last year to remove a very large ovarian cyst, my GP bent over backwards to help me get seen asap. When I wasn’t happy with the consultant I saw, I asked for a referral to see a second consultant privately, which I did. He was so much better. And then he offered me two options. I could pay privately and have my operation within 3 days, or he could take me on as one of his NHS patients and I could have the operation in 5 weeks (it was only that long because he was going on holiday for 2 weeks). I chose to go privately, but had I been stretched financially, I would have been more than happy to go via the NHS route.

I’m really not sure the antipathy that Americans have towards socialised medicine. I am proud of the fact that we take care of all members of our society. Maybe some people view that as ‘weak’ - we have this safety net in place and we don’t stand on our own two feet. I see it as being compassionate. We pay taxes to take care of so many things. Why not medical care?

And for the record. I would not be alive today without the wonderful care and skills of the surgeon and nurses that treated me for liver cancer as a baby. That experience was stressful enough on my parents without having to worry about insurance and how to pay for everything.

Put me down for a 2. I agree in principle.

I’ve been disgusted by some of the care I’ve received and that my loved ones have received on the NHS. At one hospital in particular, but I have had bad experiences elsewhere too. Main issues include being pushed from pillar to post and failing to get a diagnosis, delaying treatment, rude or unhelpful medical and clerical staff, and, during the period I actually worked at the hospital, bullying, cronyism and a culture of passing the buck that infuriated me.

Case study: in 2004 my grandma went in for a routine hip operation, for which she had waited several years. She had arthritis in her hands which prevented her from being able to hold anything, including a drink of water. No one bothered to ensure she had enough water so her kidneys failed. She was put in the ICU, where they couldn’t a dialysis machine ‘because the person that orders them is on annual leave and they’ve taken the order book with them’, she caught MRSA and pneumonia and developed septicaemia(sp?). She hovered close to death for some time, eventually making a recovery and going back to a main ward, where a physiotherapist dropped her and she broke her leg.

Complaints went unheeded meanwhile she slowly began to recover again, eventually returning to live at home before going in to nursing care. She died in 2008, still a very poorly woman although she had been before the hospital stay, to be fair(and she was in her 80s). The fact she recovered and lived another four years has absolutely fuck all to do with good care from the NHS, because frankly it was not forthcoming, and everything to do with a good nursing home, care from family and her own stubborn bloody-mindedness.

Put me down as another 1/2.
Personally, the NHS is something I’m very greatful for. My experiences with the NHS have all been positive, and due to a few long standing health difficulties, I find myself in their care multiple times a week, every week. I absolutely would be unable to afford private health care, so I thank my lucky stars every day I have the NHS behind me. It bothers me that the merit of the NHS is under scruitiny. It serves me very well.

1/2, my mother’s had to have a lot of surgery recently (for hip and knee problems, up to and including full replacements) and my father’s had pancreatitis. In both cases they did an excellent job (apart from one rather amusing incident where my dad got a bit out of it while medicated and became convinced the hospital staff were gun running).

Re the first: The vital part of your post, to me, is “if going via a for-profit company…”. If it did, and they were efficient and so on, I wouldn’t have such a problem with it. But it doesn’t; their staff are underpaid and inefficient, they are not under the control of the people who actually need to be in control of the cleaning (i.e. ward sisters/nurses), and the whole point of them being there is to make a profit for the owners of the company. That means cutting costs is more important than efficiency. If they were NHS-employed cleaners, the efficiency of their work would be the most important thing.

Re the second: I wouldn’t want to condemn anyone to anything. However emergency care is a lot more expensive, and they wouldn’t need it if the private hospital wasn’t incompetent and in addition unable to provide it themselves. I think it’s the private hospital I have a problem with in this instance, not the private patient.

And Neeps, you shouldn’t be paying for birth control at all, not £4, not anything. My prescription for the Pill is free, and I can’t stop the nurses from trying to give me big bags of condoms for nothing no matter how many times I tell them I don’t want them! I filled in the back of the prescription once to show that I was in the “paying” category, and the woman in Boots rolled her eyes (she was quite rude, actually, now I think of it) and treated me like an idiot because all birth control is free, regardless of whether you’re taking it as a contraceptive or to correct hormone problems.

Another 1/2 ckecking in. I heard some of the American objections on the Today program this morning and they’re clearly ignorant fuckwits.

I’ll have to keep this quick.

I’ve only really had one experience with the NHS and it went like this.

Gradually worsening symptoms, chest pain, trouble breathing. Get doctors appointment - next day. On antibiotics for a week, no improvement, back in a week later. Doctor (a different one admittedly) does a more detailed exam and gets me an X-ray appointment with the local hospital within the hour, tells me to go straight to hospital, do not pass Go! X-rays come back I have a text book pleural effusion (lung lining half full of fluid). The hospital staff get me a bed there and then, give me a cup of tea and I tell me to stay put* By afternoon I have a needle/tube thingy draining the gunk out of me and a dose of IV antibiotics give the bugs a kicking.

A week later I’ve read my way through the Dune trilogy again and I’m back biking into work.

At no point was I asked for anything more than my name and address. I don’t remember even having to sign anything.

The idiots clearly don’t know what they’re missing.

I could moan about the food or pay-for-tv stuff but I’ll overlook that since they sorted my dad’s little (English understatement, for non-Brits read life threatening) cancer.
Gotta go, sorry for any duff spelling.

  • I’m actually quite ill at this point but I’ve been living with the condition for over a week so I actually take my car home and get a cab back with some clothes toothbrush, reading matter etc.