Since I’m criticising others, I should own up that I was wrong as well. I thought that Biden, working with NATO allies, was applying sufficient pressure to dissuade Russia from invading Ukraine. Obviously that wasn’t the case. I’ll make sure not to overestimate Biden when I consider his abilities in the future. But I guess for now, we can add his failure to stop the Russia/Ukraine war to his list of failures.
The UK. And a Google search on pig-singing refers to the 2016 animated movie Sing, which I haven’t seen, but doesn’t seem apropos.
‘Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.’
Or his European allies, eh?
Are you thinking of this?
'Sure, but what are you blaming Trump for?
Did Trump have pro-Russian inclinations? I’ll agree with you that he did.
Was Trump a ‘useful idiot’ who could be steered towards pro-Russian positions? Sure.
Was there a Russian government guided advisor to Trump that strongly influenced his administrations policies? I doubt this. The closest example would be Paul Manafort, but Trump minimised his influence well before he became president, and Manafort was never part of Trump’s administration.
Could a pro-Russian advisor have had more influence on Trump than his cabinet advisors or inner-cadre? That’s very doubtful. Trump listened to whoever agreed with him at the moment, and whoever was closest to him. An outside agent doesn’t fit into that scenario.
Could such a pro-Russian advisor have been able to actually manipulate Trump and then hide it in what was probably the most highly scrutinised White House in history? That idea seems preposterous - enough so that if anyone is espousing it, then I’d say they’re promoting a conspiracy theory.
Cheers, thanks. I had heard that one, but didn’t recall it.
This will be my only comment today. Period. I am already two and a half hours behind schedule!
I don’t believe anyone could have stopped Putin from invading Ukraine short of use of force. He did the best anyone could do without jumping into a shooting war that even I am ambivalent about. I very much would like to challenge Putin to a single combat fight myself. Seriously, give me an F-22 and two weeks to master it, backed up by an AWACS plane to guide me in and I would gladly point it right at the Kremlin and fly it right up Putin’s ass (since there is little hope of fighting my way back out if I expend all munitions fighting my way in)- or arm wrestling if he chooses. But I do not believe the US should jump into a shooting war at this point.
The war in Ukraine is horrible, unjust, and devastating-- but playing a longer game just might be the wiser course of action here. I am convinced Putin will launch nukes before accepting defeat at this point and that would be an even huger clusterfuck. Biden had very limited options and chose one that shows the most sense and restraint. There are now options for deescalation there would not be by joining a shooting war. Even if all of Ukraine falls – Putin loses because ALL of those people will hate him and Russia for several generations. The only way Russia can control Ukraine is the same way an abusive husband controls his wife – by sheer force!
But a few years down the line Putin dies and Ukraine does not forget how Mother Russia treated her!! That region – whatever it is called then becomes more friendly toward The West. Putin is shooting himself in the foot, but he is older and it matters little to him because his goals are so out of whack.
We have a fundamental misunderstanding here. Please hear my words! I will speak only for myself but I do believe others have similar views.
We are not saying Russia is barking orders and Trump was saluting and going along. We are suggesting that Trump is an empty suit with a fragile ego who is VERY EASILY MANIPULATED!! Someone upthread said “Easier to play than a Kazoo” or something very close to that. Putin, and Russian Intelligence have the ability to predict exactly how he will respond to every comment that can be made.
The same way a teenage daughter knows exactly how to make her mother’s head spin off her spine. And similar to how you know exactly how to get . . . . I was going to say a Raiders Fan, but saw you are British. You know exactly how to piss off a Chelsea fan – and how to suck up to one. (Unless of course you root for Chelsea in which case Manchester United – perhaps the greatest team to play the sport…(or the poorest, most over rated…)
When we say that Putin controls Trump, we do not mean by giving him orders (and considering how subtle Putin has been of late- this must be confusing) – we mean by conning him into agreeing with whatever point of view Putin wants him to have. Buck_Godot has an excellent example above in this very thread:
No one is claiming Trump was under the direct control of Moscow (although that remains a possibility because none of us know who really holds those Hundreds of Millions of Dollars worth of debt Trump has coming up. But most of us are contending that Putin CAN, DOES, and HAS played Trump into being a stooge who followed the script because he was not smart enough to see he was being payed.
You sir, are missing the forest because all these damn trees keep blocking your view!! You have certainly misunderstood Aspenglow on more than one occasion (and always because you decided upon a meaning that was not intended) and then you have been stubborn about your interpretation being correct. Perhaps this is a case where we are being separated by a common language, or perhaps it is more of a contest of wills or something. Whatever it is— please stop and re-evaluate. Your portion of this discussion always reminds me of ancient church fathers trying to decide how many angels can dance on the point of a very sharp needle at the same time-- or if the English phrase This IS my body… means the bread actual changes in substance to flesh or if it is meant to be symbolic.
You are bright and you are well informed and you are grasping onto the absolutely least significant portions of the meaning of what is being said. Please try to realize what is meant rather than the actual denotation of each word-- connotation apparently holds a greater place in language here than it does there. Or perhaps just in our small circle - no need to make this global I suppose.
I believe the pig example predates the Pournelle/Niven one by a considerable time. I first heard it as: “…teach a pig to dance, it just …” I had a tee shirt in my young adult life that said as much, and there were bumper stickers. It was pretty well known and I guess it had been. Since I read The Mote in God’s Eye, I have always assumed the authors used the horse to sing version because it was supposed to relate a truly universal truth – but from an entirely alien (literally!) culture. Hence the different animal, different task, and different context – but all meaning exactly what we mean by dancing pigs. Identical, but different. Kind of reminds me of how we are understanding each other in this thread.
Personally, I believe Russia and/or Putin have some leverage with Trump, but I think it matters very little compared to how they can get him to dance to whatever tune they play by manipulating him psychologically!! Their great tool isn’t blackmail or an agent – it is the fact that Trump is so simpleminded and so easily fooled and so eager to please other “strong men” like Putin and Kim from North Korea.(*) When you said Trump is most impressed by whomever spoke to him last you were on to something – to some degree. Russia knows what Trumps wants personally-- what makes him feel more warm and fuzzy than being peed on by a beautiful eastern European woman. They know he wants the respect of Putin – kind words said on a world stage. Private wealth and lots of it. He wants to get something over on someone-- be in the know, the guy running the con rather than the guy being conned!! So they con him into thinking he is all of those things.
Have you heard of the Lincoln Project and their “audience of one”? It is the complete opposite side of that same coin. They use their knowledge of Trump’s weak mind and obsessive needs to infuriate him instead of to flatter him and gain his assistance. The Lincoln Project used their influence to make Trump reveal who he truly is to more American voters and helped him lose the election. Do you understand what we mean by controlling Trump??
(*) Trump’s idea of a perfect military is one with no bullets and no abilities except the barest needs. In Trump’s eyes the role of the military is to march in front of him while other heads of state ohh and awww at how big an impressive his military is. Trump wants to hear other dictators say: "Oh Mr. President! The size of your giant throbbing military is to much for my wife and daughters!! Please, please excuse them before they disrobe you and assail your body out of respect for your giant military parade. Yes one great parade division and a band is really all he needs except for the porters who serve him diet cokes from the mess hall.
Now I am hours and hours behind schedule – it is going to be a very long day. If I chose to post with out proofreading, please forgive errors.
It’s fun to speculate but it’s impossible to know an alternate reality. In this reality, during two Democratic president’s tenure, Ukraine has lost sizeable chunks of territory. I guess it’s comforting to take solace in an imaginary time line where things are worse though.
Maybe think about this from a different perspective. Russia was twice invaded and lost over 20 million people during two world wars. Who’s to blame? That’s a different debate. But the fact is 20 million people is a lot of people to lose.
Secondly, the dissolution of the USSR and the loss of that territory and global status was definitely a blow to the national psyche. Exploiting that new weakness by establishing bases in and around former Warsaw block and USSR territory while concurrently working to develop and deploy anti ballistic missile technology was predictably and explicitly warned as a needless provocation.
For once, don’t look at things from a simplistic egocentric point of view and look at things from another country’s point of view. What looks crazy to us might seem rational.
Back to the OP question. Trump admires Putin. At least. If Trump was still at the helm, it would have gone easier for Putin.
Why didn’t Putin do this while Trump was at the ‘Helm’? Anybody’s guess. Logistics most likely.
Both the result of Ukraine telling Putin to go tell Hell. Something they are less likely to do with a Russian stooge in the White House.
Well, it’s better to be silent and intact vs barking alongside a pair of impotent ‘friends’ and get decapitated.
Maybe I’m totally wrong, but sometimes I feel like the media is overplaying America’s role in this. America didn’t start this problem and we are doing very little to fix it.
It is a HUGE deal for Ukraine and a huge deal for Russia, but for America there isn’t really a whole lot we can do to influence it. I know we are doing sanctions. However, compared to Russia shelling civilians and Ukraine fighting for their lives in their own capital it doesn’t feel like much. I’m not sure Trump would have done much better or worse simply because there aren’t very many cards we can play, even if we wanted to.
I struggle to buy the notion Biden was the “only candidate” who could have done these things. Several Democratic candidates were just as capable.
Gigantic straw man.
Whatever would have really happened with tanTrump still at the helm (which he never was, because that was not what interested him anyway, the show and the rallies were, but that is another story), it is noteworthy to see what the people of the USA seem to think:
62% is about all the Republicans and 4/5ths of independents, right? (Or, as the article writes: “In partisan terms, the survey found that 85% of Republicans and 38% of Democrats held the view.”) No idea who this Caps-Harris is and how trustworthy, but: holy shit! The delusion strong in a lot of people is, I fear.
Just an aditional data point from the article, for crying out loud:
The Harvard study’s findings broadly buttressed a Fox News poll, carried out before Russia invaded, that found more Republicans had a negative view of Biden than of Putin and more Democrats had a negative view of Trump than of the Russian leader.
TLDR: The opinion of the majority in this board does not coincide with the opinion of the majority in the USA.
For what it’s worth, I probably would have agreed, and I’m quite left-wing. Why would Putin invade? Trump was already sowing disarray in the EU and had publicly advocated for withdrawing from NATO. In his second term, Trump may well have ordered a withdrawal, or at least a defunding, of NATO, rendering it near incapable of a coordinated response. To Putin, that might be worth waiting for.
So, no invasion, at least for a couple of years, with Trump as President.
Perhaps you have not heard, but we really are quite something:
American exceptionalism - Wikipedia.
We are also God’s very favorite nation and while not his “actual” chosen people, we are often referred to as a “New Israel”. I am not entirely sure you know who you are talking about?? It is clear to all the White, Christian Nationalists that we are much, much better than “ordinary” nations and several orders of magnitude better than what our former president referred to as “Shithole Countries”
I will refrain from linking in any more bullshit because the joke just isn’t worth the trouble but there are a few threads addressing this issue in this forum. Before I fully remove my tongue from my cheek, I need to ask one more question which may or may not be worthy of a joke depending upon if it is a typo, a spelling error, or a genuine claim:
The bolding is mine; are you saying they are being decapitated by nations that are impotent? Or did you mean important friends? Because being taken out by the impotent is just embarrassing while suffering the same at the hands of the important is understandable. (I am really not sure how you meant it, but I want to assume it was just a typo.)
I really have to agree with Aspenglow here, but I am going to fudge the phrasing and then talk about other contenders.
I will say, officially & knowing I will be attacked for it, that Biden was the only one who could have pulled it off as well as he has. There were some candidates who might have done much good but none of them would have done as well as Biden has – especially despite the adversity and disingenuous attacks the right has been making since before he took office. Biden has been like a Terminator taking shot after shot and just keep going toward the goal.
Bernie was a joke who would have never, ever been elected (and said so himself he never wanted to be elected-- just to bring some left issues to the table). I myself, and any number of recent or still just barely Republicans would have just sat out if it was between Trump and Sanders.
Elisabeth Warren is a great mind and a gifted policy wonk, she should always be consulted on important matters. But if she was president she would be on draft Nine Thousand Four Hundred Eighteen (9,418) of how to cover more Americans with health care and nothing- not one thing would have even come to a vote yet let alone been passed.
None of the others were very serious candidates to me, even the one who ended up as VP. She is fine for what she is, but at the top of the ticket – Thank you, no.
This situation called for a guy who can calmly reason when that is called for, comfort the downtrodden when that is the appropriate thing, have big plans and goals when that is allowed to be a focus, who knows how the sausage is made and who also holds about Ten-Thousand chits in congress, and yet still can sit in a room- look Putin in the eye and tell him that he is a cold hearted killer. If Biden had the full support of the Republican Party – I believe our fine nation would be in the best place we have ever been during my lifetime.
Before I start to rant about how Tucker Carlson should be facing charges in the Hague for crimes against humanity (well, against stupid humans) I guess I will stop just one sentence beyond where I should have.
Oh, and thank you all for a wild Saturday night!! Whoo, whoo! Party!
It doesn’t surprise me at all when you bear in mind two things:
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People generally blame the incumbent for anything that happens even if the causal link is dubious. So biden is the cause of what Russia’s doing now, and Russia didn’t do any invasions under trump, ipso facto.
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Pretty much all the republican base believe uncritically whatever FOX or the even-more foxxy channels say, and they are trying to push this as bidens war.