Ukraine and Russia with Trump Still at the Helm

Politics & Elections
161

If there is a consensus opinion in the thread that Trump is responsible for the Ukrainian invasion, it’s not one I agree with so I have no intention of defending it.

I am, however, failing to understand why you don’t think Trump was manipulated into taking specific actions that were adverse to Ukraine and favorable to Russia, because I think it’s crystal clear that he fired the ambassador and withheld military aid, which are very specific actions, and it’s clear that he was manipulated into taking those actions.

But we seem to be talking past each other, because I’m still responding to you framing the investigations into Trump as a “witch hunt” and you have yet to even try to convince me that Trump was so clearly innocent of everything he was accused of and that every allegation against him was so clearly false that it was improper to even think of investigating him.

Maybe you just had a moment where you just spouted a thought-limiting cliche because you couldn’t think of another response. It happens to the best of us. But if you really do believe this, I’m curious as to why. Because I’ve always associated conservatism with heavy- handed law enforcement, and it’s not like the feds are known for letting things go - they threw Martha Stewart in jail for telling one lie during an FBI interview, even though she was never charged with any underlying crimes. Ive always been generally curious as to why that standard changed when the Republicans elected a gangster as President of The United States.

Hmmm…Maybe I’ve just answered my own question.

162

From what I can tell, you’ve got no position. But here’s a question for you. Do you believe that Trump received and followed instructions from Putin during his presidency?

163

I have explicitly addressed this.

I know you saw that post because you quoted part of it when you replied to it. That’s when you claimed to be a skeptic.

That was a coupled of posts before you told on yourself by posting right wing conspiracy theories.

164

Here are more details on this stable genius masterplan:

BTW, I may be naive, but this only works if the US planes with the China flags are shot down and the pilot looks chinese. Assuming he does not FUBAR it up and puts the Taiwanese flag on the planes by confused mistake.
Wearing a false uniform in combat is a crime as defined by the Geneva Convention, is it not? Ah, well, who cares by now?

And also BTW, it is reported that the delegates laughed and clapped.

165

Ukraine and Russia with Trump Still at the Helm:

Reporter: Mr. President, what is your response to reports that from your intelligence services that Russia has targeted civilians in its unprovoked attack on Ukraine.

Trump: Putin has assured me that his maneuvers into the disputed territories was as a peace keeping mission to prevent the genocide of ethnic Russians by a illegitimate Neo-Nazi government and I see no reason to doubt him.

166

Sorry, this reads too clearly, and does not include an insult against our own intelligence services.

Try again, with more gibberish and insults.

167

Really? Have you ever listened to Trump.

I spoke with Putin last night. They are finding evidence like you wouldn’t believe. Ukraine has been hiding evidence of the corrupt Biden crime family, I won the popular vote in 2016, Ukraine switched millions of votes from Trump to Crooked Hillary…people are saying the Democrats and George Soros control Ukraine, Putin is doing what Bill Barr doesn’t have the courage to do, Hunter Biden, Hunter Biden Hunter Biden, Ukraine isn’t a real country it’s a laundry for the Democrat Party Go Putin

The irony is that if he were still President, I believe he’d be spouting this bullshit but I also believe the US would be doing exactly what they’re doing now.

168

Gonna disagree a bit. The US would be doing some of the things we are doing now, but the closer integration with NATO, with the US at the helm, would not have happened. Don’t think the currency/financial war would be as severe either.

Shit, Ann, you know as well as I there would be a good chance of Trump making pro-Russian statements. ‘Well, it’s going to be over soon now, my people tell me. That Putin, he’s a tough cookie, isn’t he? Wouldn’t take me on, no, but Ukraine? Weak, small, very small. They were too woke, too protective of Hunter. Shouldn’t have done that, you need friends. Very unfriendly.’

And there’s a non-zero chance he would have effectively come in on Russia’s side. Or remained neutral. Small, a very small chance… but that chance is there in a way it wasn’t for any other modern American president.

169

I can’t believe the guy who spent four years with his tongue up Putin’s ass and worked tirelessly to undermine NATO and sided against democracy at home and abroad would have lifted one finger to help Ukraine fend off the Russians. He’d be at home watching the carnage with a shit-eating grin just as he did on January 6.

170

I’ve thought about it, and I’m still sticking with my opinion - with a couple of caveats.
I’m know I’m holding a minority opinion here, but I have no problem believing that Trump would be tough on Putin.

Yes, Trump idolizes Putin, Putin has attained a level of power that Trump can only dream of. But i spend decades working for these multi-millionaire types and I think I know how these aggressive high-achieving assholes think. If another alpha is your friend and role model — that just makes kicking their ass more fun. It’s a dynamic I’ve seen played out on many levels during my time in business. I’ve seen best friends take sales positions with competing companies just so they could aggressively poach each other’s clients and steal each other’s business and taunt each other over it. And they remain friends, they love it, they live for that kind of relationship, it’s who they are. If they aren’t competing, they aren’t fully alive.

Or, to put it another way, Trump might ask himself “What Would Putin Do?”, and he knows what would happen if the tables were turned.

And I also don’t think Trump ever drives policy. I see Trump as a mascot, an intensifier, a base whipper-upper. He is not a policy-maker or a leader. During his first term, the people around him were pretty good at controlling him. He’s good at running his mouth ( and his Twitter fingers) but he’s not a man of action. I think his DOD could manage to keep him boxed within a normal range of military options.

Now, the caveats. Trump is a horrible negotiator, and he has no idea how to handle any negotiation with more than two parties, that’s one reason he hates treaties. We may not have gotten the kind of cohesive response from NATO that we’ve seen.

And Trump would’ve tried to undermine his own administration’s response, talking shit about Ukraine even as administration held a hard line on Russia. We probably wouldn’t have seen the kind of unified public opinion that we are now seeing. It’s the same dynamic that we saw with COVID, Trump’s deliberate undermining of his own government. It was a disastrous move during a domestic public health crisis, but I’m not as sure it would be quite as disastrous in a foreign policy situation.

And this is all assuming that the other players in Trump’s second term administration weren’t substantially more unhinged than those in the first administration, and that’s a big if.

171

Putin just invaded because he wuvs them so much!

172

Trump would oppose Ukraine because, you know, windmills.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/10/politics/donald-trump-ukraine-russia-invasion-windmills/index.html

173

Of course, Trump doesn’t really understand the kind of person Putin is even after all of their “comradeship.”

174

But some cartoonists do:

175

Love this! beautifully accurate!

176

There does not seem to be an ideal thread to post this question, and I don’t believe there is need for yet another Russia/Ukraine thread, so I will post it here (I know the OP and it seems unlikely he will complain about the distraction).

I have been rereading a few of Robert B. Parker’s Spenser books lately and currently I am in the middle of Painted Ladies which concerns itself with the artworks of Jewish families being seized by the Nazis. As often as I have heard Putin compared to Hitler and as reminiscent this land war is to early World War Eye Eye (WWII), despite the atrocities being committed by Russian military units – I have heard no reports of Russians seizing Ukrainian assets or even of low level looting. Perhaps it is too early in the conflict (while everyday seems like a week to me- the invasion was quite recent), or maybe there is nothing left to loot once the shelling has stopped.

It seems unlikely to me Russian authorities would hesitate to claim anything they wish to own on some pretext. It also seems unlikely that conscripted troops would hesitate to take whatever they wanted and could. That leaves only two options that I can think of: 1) my news sources are lazy or ignorant, or 2) No Russian Troops have had enough engagement to capture anything at all.

Beside links to nine (9) better threads to make this comment in, does anyone have any thoughts on this? Is Russia more likely to bomb a museum than to loot it?

177

Didn’t WWI more or less start by a bunch of “aggressive high-achieving assholes” trying to one-up each other in Europe?

Just look what happened to these guys when they entered into a “friendly game” over Ukraine:

178

I’m not sure what you would consider “low level looting”, but there have been several instances of Russian troops looting stores in Ukraine. Most seemed to be individual units looking for food, booze and money, so nothing “official” or organized about it, but definitely still “looting”.

Spoiled to make video links less obnoxious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoM5yx1IVFY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVqLI-W9hPM

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russian-troops-looting-throughout-ukraine-26466129

179

Thank you, I had not seen any of this.

(Disrespectful joke follows): I guess the Kelly’s Heroes type operations will have to wait for a while.

180

Communist spies and sympathizers very much existed during the Cold War, but Joseph McCarthy’s activities were called “witch hunts” as well.