Ultra Capitalism

I am mulling over an idea for a novel in which the plot is cast against the backdrop of a near future ultra-capitalist society.

My question is: Can any great minds out there help me think through the ramifications of such a system?

Let me expand the scenario:

Government voted to be solely responsible for national security. Eg defense, counter-intelligence and (maybe) justice.

All other services to be privatised (over a period of say 5 years), allowing them to properly become part of a free market.

General Tax to be reduced accordingly, with a full lump sum refund of all monies paid as National Insurance (or Social Security) back to the individual.

What would such a society look like? I am struggling to see it. Maybe writing speculative fiction isn’t my bag after all… :wink:

Any thoughts?

Check out some of the extreme capitalists over at nations states:

Nation States

Imagine the USA with less regulations, no social nets and no pollution standards. Eventually big corporations would try to steer government even more to help out their specific business. Its not a pretty picture.

The society would fragment completely as the wealthy and powerful carve up the territory for their own private states, ruled by private armies. The less wealthy and powerful would attach themselves to the wealthiest and most powerful and act as flunkies. Those on the bottom would have only those rights that the ruling class would see as being in their simultaneous interest. See also “feudalism”.

OK in my youth I used to be a games master for D&D, Traveller and such like RPGs - it is just a question of, well, questioning everything. An iterative process - so let us use your post and start questioning…

Why have a government? Who owns it? What nobody owns it?!? I am not paying for something I do not own or have stock in - abolish it. Need to think of a mechanism for passing laws now? Why not the Swiss system taken to extremes? Masses of decisions being voted on by the electorate directly - how do you decide what get voted on. Online voting maybe - with one vote per USD100,000 of capital you control per annum?

Privatise the armed services - historically they have only served the power interests anyway. ***Now ** * there is only one power interest - private ownership and money - so let the armed service serve that. Get the Generals to put up spending options, and deployment proposals and use the same online auction to decide what they equip with, what they do. who they invade etc.

Justice? Privatise it. Why not allow people to buy their way out of jail sentences?

Is your proposed near-future extreme capitalist government alone or part of a global movement/trend? I think the context it operates in will matter materially.

What else? Tax? Nope no taxes. Privatise everything - use taxes/fees at the point of use for everything - all linked with computer chips, mobile phones etc. Look at some of the technology in use in Finland and take it to extremes. Road prices, education on a class by class attendence basis etc.

National Insurance - fuck 'em. It is not invested it is paid for my current tax payer - you voted for this new type of government yes? Well screw you - you just lost your future benefits. Alternatively raise money on the capital markets to allow the departing govenment to give a lump sum to each citizen to buy their you way into a private pension/benefit scheme and then abolish the NI totally. Should get good terms as the capital markets get their money back as deposits in investment schemes so no cashflow issues.

International Diplomacy? Privatise it - how would that work.

Anybody else contributing?

Without a central government with real powers, I think that such a society will ultimately devolve in to a fairly lawless society ruled by warlords. Like Afghanistan now is since the US deposed the central government.

What you call them may differ - they may be called princes or dukes.

You may consider the outcome of the novel having something to do with the inherent instability of such a system reinventing the current regulatory climate. Kind of a pigs and farmers starting to look alike thing.

Check out some info about Hong Kong prior to the hand over… I heard they had some very hard core capitalism. I heard about a factory being set up in the middle of a high rise building. Smoke spewig out from the middle and onto the floors above.

This article is supposed to be interesting:

Anderson, Terry and P. J. Hill. “The American Experiment in Anarcho-Capitalism: The Not so Wild West,” Journal of Libertarian Studies, Vol. 3, No. 1 (1979), pp. 9-29.

Here’s an article on midieval Iceland’s anarcho-capitalist society:

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Iceland/Iceland.html

Of course, here is David Friedman’s page on libertarian crap:

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Libertarian/Libertarian.html

I don’t have Friedman’s rosy picture of Libertarianism. Since monopolists can behave anti-competitively, you’d expect them to just get bigger and bigger. Since organized crime gangs will run without restraint, they’ll be able to get as big as they can force themselves to be. Perhaps more rural areas will be able to keep them out by lynching anybody of any non-North European descent who tries to move out from the cities, and even then those people who do make it will be under a pretty watchful eye. Since no company or person can reasonably own the air, you’d expect air pollution to start to rise again (Tragedy of the Commons). Other resources would be efficiently used, but they would be private and the idea of Yosemite being a place that a regular person can go visit would be a thing of the past. Individual communities would be allowed to place tariffs on others, so that the cost of goods would rise dramatically, and as monopolies grow in size and market share, prices will rise even more as output shrinks. Standard of living will definately drop. Civil lawsuits will continue to run wild, especially now that there are no standards for quality or safety, and since the courts are private, for-profit operations…well, you can make your own conclusions.

The trouble is that capitalism requires a rule-setting agency under which the players can compete and cooperate. Without the rule-setting agency which operates outside the rules, there can be no such thing as private property, enforcement of contract, or protection from force or fraud. Imagine a baseball game with no rules. How do the players compete against each other? What does it mean to “win” when there are no rules by which you can win? What is the point of playing a game of baseball with no rules?

Note that this entity does not necessarily have to be a government. It could be deeply set cultural or religious rules, such that anyone who violates the rules is subjected to some form of sanctions. There has to be some sort of cost to violating contracts or having people murdered, otherwise you don’t have capitalism you have anarchy. So we can have a game of baseball with no referees, providing that all the players have a stake in the integrity of the game and the social relations that will continue after the game. No outside enitity enforces the rules at a sandlot baseball game, but the kids stick to the rules because otherwise they will be subjected to social sanctions. No one wants to play with a “cheater”.

But things like pollution controls can easily fit into an ultracapitalist scheme. Many of the problems with pollution occur because air and water are defined as commons. No one owns the air, right? But suppose you own the air around your property. Your neighbor is free to dump his toxins into HIS air. But the minute his toxins get into YOUR air, he can be sued for damages. Pollution of course isn’t necessarily prevented by strong government, the environmental devastation of the Eastern Bloc being example A.

So the fantasy of corporations ruling the world won’t work. If Bill Gates set his own rules within the Microsoft campus, why would he bother “selling” his products? Why not just send guys around to your house and take the money from his “customers” and give them nothing in return? Why compete with Apple when he can send his guys over to Apple headquarters and burn the place down? Why pay his employees when he can just threaten to have them shot if they don’t work?

Without some sort of external rules whether governmental or social or religious that prevent Bill Gates from taking those steps then what you have is not capitalism but feudalism.

I’ve got the perfect book for you. The Market for Liberty by Morris and Linda Tanahill. The whole book is dedicated to describing the details of a hypothetical anarcho-capitalist society. Private currencies, law enforcement, and scenarios with/without privatized national defense. You couldn’t possibly beat this book for what your looking to do.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0930073010/qid=1079399705/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-3668279-3641519?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

If you’re planning to write a book on a subject you can’t envision, I suggest you not quit your day job.

Check out Poul Anderson’s The Space Merchants for a dystopian ultra-capitalist society.

Oh dear! The obvious point is that unless you think you can “beat this book”, or at the very least take a different angle on it, you might want to save your ink.

Thanks for all the comments and links, will keep me busy.

As for the barbed comments about my lack of imagination, all writers research and that the entire point of this exercise was to elicit as many varied responses to a high concept as possible.

If I had simply stated my ‘vision’ I may have ended up iarguing the toss over whether people in such a society would drive pink cars.

Thanks again everyone.

huh?

I do intend to “beat this book” if by no other means than by sheer volume of words. I intend to resoundingly trump this publication by ramming more words per page than it’s puny minded author could have ever imagined. Mwahahah.

/sarcasm off

:wink:

Oh, now I get it. Little slow today. No this book wasn’t a work of fiction really–no characters or plot, just outlining how such a society would work. I think a SF book with such a backdrop could be fascinating. I know I’d read it.

The problem I have with this and with all uber-capitalism schemes is that you end up replacing laws with lawsuits. I can easily see how, after a while, the major occupation of the inhabitants of such a place would be listed as “jury duty”. Even if pollution could be effectively controlled this way (and I doubt it) the means to that end would be far less efficient. And how to deal with truly global problems like greenhouse warming? Sue every manufacturer on the planet?

IMO its the last two words that make the most difference. You need to decide whether the government would maintain a (minimal) set of laws and enforce them, or just leave it to private citizens/corporations.

Let me give my take on it. With govt providing law then the outcome would be a little like the present day US but taken to extremes. They would be a an upper class of very wealthy individuals who would be getting increasingly wealthy. Life for them would be peachy, huge houses surrounded by computerised CCTV which automatically transmits the details of any trespassers to the nearest police station. A lot of the ideas notquitekarpov suggested are good too - direct payment for education classes etc. There would be a fairly large middle class, fairly well off and working hard to get into the upper class. Births would probably be rare amongst this group - the cost of good education for their children would put them off. There would be a lot of social mobility between this and the upper class. Finally a lower class, doing the shitty boring jobs for low pay. Poor health (can probably afford cheaper medical treatments by going to loan sharks and financially crippling themselves, anything serious and they would die) and poorly educated (ability to read and write would be rare). There would be little chance of escape from this lower class, even for your children, as you can’t afford education.

If the government didn’t dispense justice then the society would be even more extreme. There would be some mega rich individuals who control pretty much all large companies, whose ownership would be passed down the families. Companies would either be very large, or very small. Large companies would have their own security forces, taking control of whole areas as sanctuaries for their business, and possibly for employees to live in. There would be occassional open warfare between the various corporate armies. Small companies would be street stall type affairs, unable to grow as they can’t afford security forces to defend themselves. The mega rich would live in huge mansions with loads of servants, heavily defended by soldiers who shoot anyone approaching it who isn’t authorised. Each family probably has their own private doctor and teacher who live on site. There would be a small middle class who occupy the lower rungs at the large companies, and live in gated communities. These are possibly the most unhappy class - they can see the immense wealth of the mega rich and aspire to it, believing they can get there by hard work, but in reality the only way is to marry into one of the families, which is very difficult. Finally a huge lower class, many living in violent slums, working in huge unhealthy factories set up for export. No education, health care would be provided by people who are essentially witch doctors.

But Planet, can’t you see that your hypothesized society is not “capitalist” in any meaningful sense of the word?

Can we take it as a given that capitalism cannot function without some mechanism of free enterprise, enforcing contracts, protecting private property, and protecting people from physical violence? As in my example, if Bill Gates can rob, murder, and enslave people with impunity, then he is not a capitalist but a feudal lord.

You postulate that the mega-rich will live in guarded enclaves, with private security, health, education, etc. But here’s the thing. How to the “mega-rich” in such a society maintain their wealth? In other words, since there is no free market of goods and services, there is no way for businessmen to make a profit buying and selling goods and services. Meaning, the whole wealth creating engine of capitalism is dismantled, and we return to a new feudal system of poverty, feudal lords, and serfs who produce only what they must, because everything they produce will be expropriated by the aristocracy anyway.

How can capitalism function without banks, stock exhanges, trade, competition, cooperation, innovation, intellectual property, contracts, or sophisticated financial institutions? There has to be some method of protecting these institutions. Perhaps we can imagine them to function in the abscence of government, but there must be some corresponding social enforcement mechanism. An example might be something like the so-called protestant work ethic…if everyone had a religious belief in the inviolability of contract, the virtue of work, and the sacredness of financial trust, and there was an explicit attempt to teach and indoctrinate those values to everyone, then something like this might be possible. But the key question is how does such a society handle “cheaters”, people who only pretend to follow this philosophy, or explicitly reject the philosophy? Given a critical mass, perhaps social sanctions would be enough…consumers would simply refuse to do business with unethical people. That would mean that your reputation would be extremely important.

I guess the bottom line is that today’s businessmen are not neccesarily in favor of a capitalist system. They are in favor of wealth and power for themselves. Under our current capitalist system the gain wealth and power by producing, buying and selling goods and services. I’m sure most would be happy to be able to accumulate wealth and power without the troublesome necessity of producing goods and services that consumers value, and would be all too glad to have their competitors shot and average people made into their slaves. But of course, if they got their wish, they would experience a precipitous drop in their standard of living. Bill Gates as a businessman in a free country has a much higher standard of living than a feudal aristocrat shivering in a drafty castle and worrying about raids from neighbors. Our current standard of living depends on an intricate supply chain of goods and services. Yes, today’s dictators can buy luxury goods produced by the global economy, and can sell raw materials on the world market to pay for them. But if there was no free global economy then those dictators will have to make do with locally produced luxury goods. Current dictators are free-riders on the global economy. And if there were no restraints on “businessmen”, then those businessmen would cease to be businessmen and would then become dictators.