This thread consists of a completely lame attempt at “guilt by association” a la Joe McCarthy.
The point of a demonstration is to convey a public message. That message is completely unaffected – logically, practically and morally – by the supposed associations of people involved in the demonstration.
The pretense that anyone would suddenly decide not to participate in a peace demonstration after learning that some “stalinist” group was involved in organizing it, is just peurile.
If the author of this thread has a disagreement with the peace movement on its merits, he/she should state it honestly, rather than creating ridiculous innuendos on the margins.
(By the way, “unclean hands” is a legal doctrine without application in this context. Moreover, supporting Castro (as opposed to, say, Batista) has nothing to do with Stalinism. Just thought you should know.)
I don’t understand how a group of people could bring up things against the United States, like charges of “imperialism,” and then get upset when the motivations of major players in the peace movement are examined.
What’s good for the United States government is not fair applied back to its detractors? That is not my idea of free speech.
Thanks, lout, you’re right. I’m all for convening hearings and issuing subpoenas. You have won the Beagle’s Corallary to Godwin’s Law Award. Bear it with pride.
Am I missing something? Those of you who are calling these groups Stalinist, why that particular word? Are you using it as a synonym for communist? Are any of the US communist groups Stalinist? Or are they just plain communists? (That is, communists-by-philosphy who do not follow or revere any particular past communist leader.) Or perhaps Trotskyitess?
Whenever there’s an anti-war movement, communist and socialist groups are part of it. This does not mean everyone who is anti-war is a commie or socialist.
Who’s getting upset about that? I agreed with you that International ANSWER was Stalinist.
Going from that fact to asserting that Stalinists run the US anti-war movement, however, is completely unfounded. International ANSWER organized two mass demonstrations in October and January. UFPJ organized one for this Saturday. Organizing three demonstrations, regardless of size, is not running the anti-war movement. Especially when you consider that ANSWER and UFPJ haven’t done much more than organize those three demonstrations.
I’m not upset about you, or anyone else, calling ANSWER Stalinist. Trying to tar the whole movement with the rest of that brush (unless I’m completely misreading “Stalinists Run US Peace Movement?”) because of ANSWER’s politics is what I object to.
You’ve been polite.
I bristle at the whole “McCarthy” thing. When, in my first post, I say that I support anyone’s right to protest or even be a Stalinist - and predict it - sigh. I would never have dragged ordinary Americans in for questioning about their political beliefs. Now, as for Soviet spies…
Lemur866 has it right. Just as conservatives are rightly criticized for speeches at Bob Jones University - peace activists should be questioned for tolerating Stalinists in their ranks.
Hazel, reread the first post, third paragraph in the quote. Read the last paragraph.
No they absolutely should not. For all ANSWER’s mistaken politics, for all the presumptions they grant themselves that they are “leaders” of the movement for being at the right place at the right time to pull off two very large, very successful demonstrations (but not much else), they have just as much right to be in the anti-war movement as any other group that opposes the war on a progressive basis. Solidarity is what keeps the movement strong, and the ability to openly argue out political and tactical differences is what keeps the movement going forward.
In what OBL had to say, today, was a statement that his supporters should work with their “socialist” comrades in the fight against the infidel imperialists. However, he made plain that these “socialist comrades” were also infidels. So, in the end he will be coming after them. He is simply practicing the time honored tactic of divide and conquer.
The story goes…If we liberate the Iraqi’s, OBL will use the desire of the masses to be liberated and go on the offensive against the ruling class in such countries as Saudi Arabia. To counteract this, the Saudis will want to get us out of the picture. As in the above concerning the “socialists” OBL is a master of turning any situation to his benefit.
I cannot speak for Beagle but in my opinion if there is a demonstration that you are in agreement with, you should go and participate if you wish. However, you should know that their motives are not as pure as yours. What if sometime in the future they put on a demonstration that you are not really caught up in, will you maybe go and support them just because they were so right about the first demonstration. Of course, you wouldn’t do such a thing, but someone must because that is one of their motives and the source of “friendly travelers”.
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Beagle, I don’t hold all Conservatives responsible for the poor judgment or warped views of a few. As a whole, they have no control over who speaks at Bob Jones University. That is an individual choice.
The same is true for the peace activists. We have no control over who participtes in the movement. But even if we did, I can see no reason to exclude “Stalinists” since the cause is worth while.
I can see that you are making a real effort to be fair. If you want to be better informed about left-wing activities, right-wing sources are not the most credible. Look to a more moderate organization. One of the best sources that I use is Amnesty International. They were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize a few years ago. I find the Amnesty International USA website to be of particular interest.
This thread wouldnt have anything to do with my post about Stalin and Trotsky in another thread?
Seriously though, this kind of reasoning has popped up a few times now. The first time i saw it some guy (not one of you, i hope?) claimed that ANSWER had organized the NY protest rally. Pressed for facts it showed that ANSWER at most tried to take some credit, and probably only advertized the rally on their web-site.
And it still boils down to if you wan’t to make the point that the majority of protesters are also out manifesting their lojalty with Stalinism and Kim-Jong Il. Well there, you just made 15 million people stalinist just so you can disregard their opposition to the war. Or else it may be that these marginal group jumps at the oportunity to capitilize off of the anti-war feelings.
Finally the original post contains a (quite typical) giant leap in going from speaking of past rallys, all (aledgedly) organized
by Stalinists-by-association, to speaking of the new rally having a co-chair who is said to have a personal sympathy for Fidel Castro. Nowhere is it said this has ever been an official stance of (alleged) organizers UFP.
So there. Before claiming that the protest so and so, is really full of people sympathizing with so-and-so, id like to hear: Credible facts about which, including all, organizations that were involved in running the show. Credible witnesses that this was known to the protesters, i.e. for example speaches at the rally making it clear to protesters that they were not only participating in a peace rally, but also in a stalinist peace rally.
Without these facts, you know there’s really only a whole lot of people out there to show they don’t support the war.
I do not believe the New York rally was organized by ANSWER. AFAIK it was organized by MoveOn.
However, it was part of a world-wide effort. When a New York demonstrator takes pride in the world-wide total of a million or more, it should be borne in mind that many of those people were organized by ANSWER and had speakers representing ANSWER’s values.
So if you are right in that the NY rally was organized by MoveOn it can for sure not have been (exlusively) organized by United For Peace and Justice (UFPJ), and it’s co-chair, the Castro-supporter. But now that is what the OP would seem to suggest, have a look! You just made my point, i believe.
Your second one: Firstly, i believe that the worldwide total is more like 15 mill than one mill. Secondly, the existance of a thousand stalinists among these 15 mill is no more suprising than the existance in a pro-war rally of 15 mill (had there been one) of a thousand KKK-supporters, or oklahoma-bombing sympathizers, or the League for turning arab middle east into a parking lot.
I know I have made this point elsewhere, but i think it’s worth making again.
What demonstrations are you saying the Stalinists were in charge of? What organizations exactly organized these marches? How many did participate? Were there really speakers promoting Stalinism?
Enough false or unsupported claims have been made about this subject on this and other threads (see above) for you having to back that up.
All it says about Stalinism in the actual article is one mention that they are a “Stalinist Communist” movement. It never alleges that they are actually Stalinists, but rather Communists in the Stalinist style. Somehow I doubt even that.
Let me repeat this. Nobody- save a few old Russins men (as in actual Russians in Russia who speak Russian and do nothing but Russian stuff)- likes Stalin. Modern Communism is no friend of Stalin or his ways. Communists are not Stalinists. Nobody likes Stalin. Nobody likes Stalin. Nobody is a Stalinist.
Even Saddam Hussain himself, who certainly apprciates how Stalin gained and held on to power, is not a Stalinist.
So if I hear that Stalinists run the US peace movement, I’m going to dismiss that as reactionary BS. Now if people want to tell me that modern Communists support and organize for peace, I’ll talk to you about Communism and peace and why that isn’t such a bad combination.
Sorry if I believe the evidence I presented over a Communist cheerleader claiming nobody is a Stalinist. The WWP identifies with KJI. KJI is a Stalinist. Saddam loves Stalin so much he has the look and the philosophy, in addition to the brutality.
When the facts are against you, pretend like they don’t exist? I guess if communists had their way all this reactionary debating would end anyway. Facts will be what we make them.
I agree that the difference between being a communist of the stalinist variety and being a stalinist is a subtle one.
But what is this article you are talking about? I earlier requested some proof of rallys being run by stalinists and if this really took place i’d be interested to read about it!
One editorial outlining some of the long-term relationships between the old guard Stalinists and their new, improved Marxist-Leninist anti-war whatever.
On Ramsey Clark If this site scares you, check the facts, as I have. Slate has done a similar piece.
While reading your post several times i just can’t seem to find the place where it says which peace rallies (if any) these organisations organised last saturday.
This point i’ve made time and time again here, and on other threads. Still no reply.
The ANSWER issue has been discussed by me and others above, and elsewere. Please have a look.
Now if you have any concrete evidence proving that stalinists played a major (or any) role in organizing protests this last saturday, provide them.
Else check up on your facts. And stop spreading urban myths.
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