Under what circumstances can a mssage board be compelled to provide IP addresses

Factual Questions
1

This is kind of a legal question, but since it has nothing to do with anything I or anyone I know is going to do anytime in the foreseeable future, it seems safe to ask (I’m sure the mods that be will inform me if I am wrong on this).

If a guest poster at this or any message board posts something that indicates knowledge of a crime that’s being investigated or tried, can the message board be forced to divulge the IP address of the poster by the Mods of a society in general, i.e., the law? Or is this an application of free speech that trumps the needs of DAs and such? Or, as seems most likely, is it in the gray zone of internet stuff that hasn’t been worked out yet?

2

From http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/rules.php?

From time to time we may acquire nonconfidential but sensitive information about you, some of which you may have posted yourself to our board. We won’t disclose or repeat such information except as (a) reasonable and necessary to manage our business, or (b) required by law, or (c) consistent with good citizenship, e.g., to prevent or report a crime or to respond to inquiries from law enforcement.

3

Also I believe they will turn over any and all data required by a supena (ie IP address any any info they have on you.

4

You really do have about the world’s worst board moniker to be asking this question “hypothetically”. :wink:

5

Short answer: yes, the MB can be “forced” to divulge the IP address (and other information) about the poster. I’m not clear what “free speech” has to do with it. Finally, this is not gray at all. It is quite, quite clear.

Why would they need the IP address? If they do, and it’s a criminal matter, they subpoena the information. Same result if it’s a civil matter.

6

I think the OP’s question is not only “Can they be forced to divulge,” but also “Under what circumstances can they be forced to divulge.”

If no one else can answer, I’ll be able to in a few months; I’m taking a course in Cyberlaw this semester.

7

[QUOTE=jackelope]

If no one else can answer, I’ll be able to in a few months; I’m taking a course in Cyberlaw this semester.
[/QUOTE]

Sigh.

If you are lucky, next semester’s cyberlaw class will be taught by an experienced,
practicing attorney who knows something about this area of the law.

Someone like Campion.

I don’t see how her answer, as abbreviated as it was, didn’t answer the question.

If you don’t take her word for it, will you take mine? If not, maybe I can find an undergraduate who took cyberlaw last semester.

8

[QUOTE=jackelope]
“Under what circumstances can they be forced to divulge.”
[/QUOTE]

If someone admitted to a crime on the board, I suspect that the moderators would, by law, be forced to report it to the police. I am not a lawyer, but I believe that it is a crime to not report knowledge of a crime (though of course a defence of “I thought he was kidding” would probably get you out of it fairly simple.)

But for something like the police wanting to find out if the owner of a certain credit card number had an account here, for instance, I suspect that they would need a warrant of some sort.

9

[QUOTE=Random]
I don’t see how her answer, as abbreviated as it was, didn’t answer the question.
[/QUOTE]
The thread title says, “under what circumstances.” Campion’s answer says, “Why would they need the IP address? If they do, and it’s a criminal matter, they subpoena the information. Same result if it’s a civil matter.”

I suspect (and maybe I’m reading too much into the question) that the OP was looking for more specific information than “if it’s subpoenaed.” Under what circumstances might it be subpoenaed? People talk about using drugs all the time on the SDMB; could they be subpoenaed for that? Are they likely to? What if someone says, “I accidentally backed into a parked car at the mall, and then I drove off”? What if someone says, “I wish my neighbor were dead”? Or “I think I’m going to kill my neighbor”? Or even, “I killed my neighbor”?

I intended no disrespect to the previous posters in the thread; I thought the OP’s question was only being partially answered, and I was attempting to clarify.
[QUOTE=Random]
If you don’t take her word for it, will you take mine? If not, maybe I can find an undergraduate who took cyberlaw last semester.
[/QUOTE]
Sure, I’ll take your word, if you’ll answer the OP’s question. I wasn’t questioning anyone’s credentials; just pointing out that they didn’t seem to be answering his (maybe insufficiently clear) original question.

10

[QUOTE=Sage Rat]

But for something like the police wanting to find out if the owner of a certain credit card number had an account here, for instance, I suspect that they would need a warrant of some sort.
[/QUOTE]

Or maybe a subpoena, as I once heard someone (who wasn’t guessing) suggest.
(Ignore me. I’ll be over here beating my head against the wall.)

11

[QUOTE=jackelope]
People talk about using drugs all the time on the SDMB; could they be subpoenaed for that? Are they likely to? What if someone says, “I accidentally backed into a parked car at the mall, and then I drove off”? What if someone says, “I wish my neighbor were dead”? Or “I think I’m going to kill my neighbor”? Or even, “I killed my neighbor”?
[/QUOTE]

I’ll assume that your reference to ‘they’ refers to the SDMB.

The answers are yes, no, yes*, yes*, and yes.

*Assuming that there is a crime that a prosecutor is investigating, or there is a related civil claim that is pending. In the two situations that I have marked with an asterisk, this is less than perfectly clear. If the neighbor turns up dead, though, any doubt as to subpoena power vanishes.

Essentially, if I (as an attorney with subpoena power in the state in which the Reader is located) read a post on the SDMB where someone talks about being involved in a situation that I reasonably believe is related to one of my cases, I can readily subpoena the Reader and find out who that person is.

Is that scenario likely to happen? No. But that’s not because your information in the Reader’s files is somehow under First Amendment protection. Rather, it’s because it’s highly unlikely that anyone is going to be posting here about something that pertains to one of my (civil) cases.

Serious criminal admissions, though? Under the right circumstances, someone here would probably make a phone call and alert the appropriate authorites. And a subpoena would follow.

12

Thanks for your responses. I did some checking around at legal sites and they confirmed the consensus of what we have here: if you post soemthing relevant to a criminal or civil matter on a message board, you IP address can be subpoenaed, if it’s available.

I was confused because I was aware of the fact that when Homeland Security wanted access to all of Google’s search records over a given period of time, Google told 'em to go fish in some other pond. But that was a broad-based fishing expedition, whereas things that have satisfied a judge that they’re relevant to a case get delivered in almost all cases.

Works for me.

13

I once wrote a high school book report on cyberlaw, and I agree with **Random ** and Campion. :smiley:

14

Most message will give up stuff with a subpoena. But I would imagine a whole lot of them will give up the records to the authorities if they are asked without a subpoena. At&T got bad press recently when it was alleged (perhaps the addmitted but I don’t remember) that they gave information to the government. You should not count on a message board operator keeping anything secret.

15

Child porn. If a post included links to content that was potentially exploitative of a minor, administrators can submit whatever evidence/logs they have access to to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

Fruad. If the SDMB noticed that they recently had 200 memberships paid for using credit card numbers that are in near sequence, and so far 50 of those charges resulted in rejected payment or chargebacks for the membership fees, the admins could, at their own discretion, provide the list of 200 credit card numbers and whatever subscriber information they have, to civil lawyers, law enforcement and/or the Financial Institution responsible for the credit card numbers in question.

16

Of marginally more importance to me is under what circumstances would the SDMB give up peoples’ IP addresses of their own free will, i.e., without somebody going to a judge and getting a subpoena.

17

Fraud too. :o :smiley:

See my post above, Ethilrist.

18

[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]
Fraud too. :o :smiley:

See my post above, Ethilrist.
[/QUOTE]

True, they could do that. What I meant was, are there any circumstances under which they’d send our IP addresses to, say, a newspaper?

19

[QUOTE=Gfactor]
I once wrote a high school book report on cyberlaw, and I agree with **Random ** and Campion. :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

My son watches “Cyberchase,” on PBS Kids, so I too am qualified to opine on this issue, and, shockingly, I agree with Campion’s answer and the concurrences of Random and GFactor.

Let’s assume that the hosts of the message board in question were bound and determined to resist with all the legal tools available to them.

The general sequence of events would be, as mentioned above, that the records would be requested via a writ of subpoena duces tecum. “Subpoena” is from the Latin for “under penalty,” and refers to the writ’s command to appear under penalty of punishment from the court if you do not. “Duces tecum” basically means “bring with you” and it refers to the specific kind of subpoena that orders you to produce tangible evidence: records, documents, and the like.

A subpoena may be issued with relatively little judicial oversight. As Random suggests above, any attorney in the jurisdiction can ask the clerk of the court for a subpoena for any matter in which he’s involved. As an officer of the court, the attorney is bound to use this power in a responsible fashion.

If the message board host believes that they should not be required to produce the records in question, they may move to quash the subpoena. This is a procedural motion that asks the cognizant court to void the subpoena. The party moving to quash must provide the grounds for his request. For example, the records requested may be privileged in some respect, such as revealing communication between an attorney and a client, or be the work product of an attorney’s legal representation. The subpoenaed party may complain that the request is overly broad, that producing the records requested is too onerous a task, or that the request will not yield any material that is either relevant itself or reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of relevant evidence.

The court will hear the arguments and decide the issue. If the message board fails to prevail, they may ask the court to stay its ruling pending an appeal of the issue. Ultimately, the issue will be finally decided. If the message board still resists the order, the court may compel them via its power to punish contempt, by fines or jail time.

20

Exactly what good does knowing someone’s IP? Enough to find your house? Even if it is not static?