Underrated wars

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’ll start this off:

For four years, from 6 AD to 9 AD, the Romans were busy fighting a giant war in Illyria: The Bellum Batonianum. It is also known as the Great Illyrian Revolt, which is what I prefer to call it, since it rolls off the tongue a bit easier.

So, the Great Illyrian Revolt. It was basically what it says on the tin: The Romans were facing a massive uprising by a coalition of Illyrian tribes. Suetonius calls it the most serious foreign war since the Punic Wars. It was fought across the entire western Balkans, and at times involved upwards of 100,000 Roman and auxiliary troops at a time. Augustus ordered Tiberius to break off ongoing operations in Germany and move his army to the Balkans. The war stretched Roman resources: We’re told that at one point, the Romans resorted to purchasing and freeing thousands of slaves to fill out the armies. At stake was Roman control of the key region of Illyria, and a potential collapse of the Roman eastern flank. We’re told of panic in Rome, and of fears that an invasion of Italy itself might follow. According to Velleius Paterculus:

So, it was a pretty major deal. And yet, no one ever talks about it. If you’ve never heard of this war, I don’t blame you: It’s hardly ever mentioned even in biographies of Augustus or Tiberius. The most you’ll hear of it is usually along the lines of: “Oh, yeah, at this time there was some fighting going on in Illyria.”

Why doesn’t anyone think it’s important? Well, for one thing, the Romans won. Like with so many uprisings against Rome, the end result was just an even tighter imperial grip on the rebelling region. So, any fears of barbarians swarming into Italy were unfounded this time around. There are also no famous battles or other episodes from the war that make for particularly good stories. So, maybe it makes sense that it’s never mentioned much except in passing.

So, why do I care? Because I think that this war puts a much more famous episode in a different light. In 9 AD, immediately following the conclusive Roman victory in Illyria, three Roman legions were ambushed and wiped out in Germany. I am of course talking about the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest.

Everyone knows about Teutoburg. It’s probably the most famous Roman defeat ever, or at least the second most famous, after Cannae. Search YouTube, and you’ll find a ton of documentaries about it. Teutoburg is often presented as the battle that, in a single blow, changed history, and ended Roman eastward expansion. Instead of conquering the Germans, as they had planned, the Romans stopped at the Rhine. We’re told that the destruction of the legions in the forests of Germany shattered the Romans’ view of themselves as invincible. Augustus himself is said to have freaked out, and, according to Suetonius, he took to banging his head against the walls of his palace, shouting: “Varus, give me back my legions!”

And so forth. Now, my problem with this is that the Roman reaction to Teutoburg, and the way the battle is often presented as a turning point in history, never really made all that much sense to me. Sure, it was a defeat, and losing three legions is pretty bad. But, still: It was *one *defeat. The Romans had lost battles and even whole armies before. The Teutoburg disaster, by itself, just doesn’t seem like enough to wreck the Roman psyche, and turn their policy regarding expansion upside down, the way we’re often told that it did. It feels like we’re missing something.

Of course, one thing that is often missed, or rather not mentioned, is the simple fact that conquering beyond the Rhine might not be all that great an idea to begin with, unless you want to slog your way through dank forests filled with crazy Germans all the way to the what is now Russia. If you’re going to stop somewhere, the Rhine is a pretty logical place to do it. But I think that a more immediate thing that everyone is missing might be the Great Illyrian Revolt. Teutoburg is usually presented as happening in a vacuum. As I said, though, losing three legions in Germany, while bad, shouldn’t really be enough to spook you as badly as we’re often told that it spooked the Romans. However, losing three legions in Germany, immediately on the heels of spending four years and a ton of resources putting down a very scary rebellion in Illyria? Yeah, that might be just about enough to make you reassess your foreign policy, and turn your attention towards consolidating your frontiers. The situation on the borders, taken as a whole, probably didn’t’ look super healthy at that point.

Suetonius does connect the two in his biography of Tiberius:

It’s just a thought. Anyway, that’s my entry for wars we should probably know about. Have you got any?

2

Nothing really to contribute, just wanted to say thanks for an interesting post and viewpoint!

3

I make a point of teaching my 1st-year college students about the Congo Wars of the past 30 years – some would call parts of them Africa’s World War. But most Dopers likely know something about this.

The OP makes an interesting point, about how the failure to make Germans speak a Romance language (that’s the effect most interesting to me personally) could partly be due to Roman overstretch in the Balkans.

4

I have always been interested in the Taiping Rebellion of China, lasting 1850-1864 and leading to the deaths of at least 20 million Chinese (and in some reports, nearer 70 million). And while books have been published, I doubt 1 in a 100 Westerners have ever heard of it. They might have heard of the Opium Wars, which occurred in the same general time, but were much smaller affairs than this major conflict.

5

Doubt Westerners have heard of most non western conflicts. How many Chinese would know of The French wars in Italy?

I would add the Ottoman-Persian Wars. They played a huge role in tieing down Ottoman forces and stopping the from overrunning C Europe.

6

Everybody knows about the Peloponnesian Wars, but I was surprised to learn how many places the Athenians were fighting in c. 459 BC. They were constantly fighting rebellions in various allies (read: subject states), but they were also willing to fight the Persians damn near anywhere, including places like Egypt, Phoenicia, and Cyprus. I had no idea the extent to which these ancient world empires were interconnected, nor the extent to which Athens was willing to deploy Greek soldiers to fight foreign wars.

This is an important observation because of how clearly it illustrates Thucydides’ thesis about the cause of the Peloponnesian War. Sparta had the best soldiers and the best land forces of the Greek world and had been, up to that time, the de facto leader of the Hellenes. However, they had no force projection ability. Their navy was not as powerful as Athens, and their reliance on slave/serf helots tied down their army at home. So they had a powerful army but couldn’t really DO anything with it.

Athens’ overseas deployments never amounted to much strategically, and probably cost them a great deal. We have very little information about how these campaigns played out. But what leaps out in my mind is the message these deployments must have sent to Sparta and the rest of the Hellenes. By fighting in places like Egypt, they told the world, “We are willing to do what the Spartans cannot. We can fight anywhere, any time, against anyone.”

That’s a pretty powerful message, and as the Spartans clearly understood their star was falling and Athens was rising, I have no doubt it contributed greatly to the outbreak of the Peloponnesian War.

7

The Mexican-American War. It had a huge impact on the history of both countries.

8

How about Simon Bolivar and the South American (or Latin American) Wars of Independence. The local’s victory, and the concurrent Monroe Doctrine certainly changed the shape of two continents, yet almost no one up North is aware of the scope of the war.

9

Agreed. My first Son’s middle name is Bolivar :).

.

10

The Russo-Japanese War of 1905. With revolution simmering on the home front, Tsar Nicholas chose this moment to try to further Russia’s eastern expansion and to establish a warm water port at Port Arthur, in Manchuria. The Japanese navy attacked and defeated the Russian ships stationed there, and then proceeded to hand Russia it’s own ass by defeating both their navy and army in a series of fiercely fought battles on land and sea. This war had far ranging effects, including swinging sympathy from the Romanov dynasty to the growing revolutionary movement, and it certainly had a major influence in the victory of the communists in the 1917 revolution, as well as embittering the Japanese in their attitude toward Western powers, who they felt treated Japan as a defeated power. This may have lead to their entry into WWII in later years.

11

It’s also seen as a major turning point outside the Western world because it was the first time in modern history that a Western power was defeated by a non-Western power.

12

Yup. As a Texan, I’ve learned some Texas History. Then–what happened next. U S Grant served in the Mexican war; when he wrote his memoirs, he knew what happened after that.…

Speaking of wars that led to other wars–the Seven Years War doesn’t get much press. Known over here as the French & Indian War…