Unfairly killed thread

I have a bit of a complaint.

I opened a thread asking a question. The question was obviously one that was going to be somewhat controversial, however I tried to couch it such that it addressed only a specific small piece of a specific issue.

The question was regarding the objections to the licensing scheme proposed by Al Gore. I was intentionally trying to avoid the general mish-mash of over-the-top responses that come up in the Great Debates forum, especially on the topic of gun control.

Our moderator (manhattan) chose to kill, what I think is a perfectly reasonable and mostly well behaved thread because he/she felt that I had ulterior motives.

In fact, I think, if you reread my responses, I did everything in my power to keep the discussion focused on the stated issue. I avoided espousing my personal preferences or beliefs. At every turn, when someone tried to steer the discussion toward other tangents, I politely asked that we try to keep it on track. I don’t see any evidence of soapbox antics and the only points I debated were with people’s understanding of the question or questioning the validity of their assumptions.

In fact, for the record, I oppose Al Gore’s licensing proposal, but since I’m in favor of stricter gun controls, my reasons are different than those of pro gun people. I simply wanted to understand what (if any) were their rational arguments against licensing.

Now I can understand if the moderator decided that the topic was more suited to the Great Debates forum after all. I wouldn’t agree, but I would have accepted that without complaint. However the moderator decided to kill the subject, midstream:

My complaint is threefold:

(1) The moderator is guessing (inaccurately) at my motives and taking an action based on that assumption. His/her prerogative - obviously, but hardly conduct becoming a moderator.

(2) I don’t think a reasonable answer was given and certainly the subject was not exhausted so there may have been more opinions forthcoming. If I have only the responses, so far, to go on - my conclusion has to be that gun people don’t like it because they are irrational, paranoid, and don’t understand the proposal. All of this may be true, but I was hoping that maybe there was something more.

(3) For some reason, this thread seemed to be held up to a completely different standard than all others. The implication seems to be that it is unacceptable to engage in any discussion or debate in any other forum except great debates. History clearly indicates otherwise - many, many threads in the General Questions forum engage in debate. I was trying to avoid the GD forum because I wanted to avoid all of the other control issues and stay focused to a specific issue and frankly, the topic that I opened was not a GD topic.
Well, that’s all I wanted to say. I thought the moderator overstepped the line in killing the thread and exercised poor judgement based on poor assumptions about my motives.

The closed thread is What’s wrong with Gore’s gun proposal?. I haven’t read it, but posting about this here in ATMB undermines whatever case you might have, because the BBQ Pit is the place for complaints.

picmr

picmr:

Well, that wasn’t clear to me. This is my first complaint, so I wasn’t sure where it should go… I didn’t even think to look in the pit - I thought that was for flames only, but I see now that it is also for complaints about moderation.

Maybe the moderator of this forum can move it… or kill it… whatever…

Ahh… well… context is everything. I think those were valid comments within the scope of the responses. Perhaps you really just have a problem with my style. Nevertheless, you’ve clearly made up your mind, so I’ll drop it.

You reveal yourself. General Questions is not the place to ask for opinions. It is for asking and answering questions that have factual answers.

I guess, Joey, what you need to ask yourself is, “Was(were) the question(s) answered?”

Let’s take a look at that, shall we? You actually asked two individual questions.
[list=1]
[li]I just want to know, what are the potential pitfalls and worries that pro gun folks have with Gore’s proposal?[/li][li]Why does the NRA think it’s a bad idea?[/li][/list=1]

Now, the second question, can be answered factually, which is the test of a GQ topic. I, myself, went to the NRA site and gave you a direct quote from LaPierre addressing the NRA’s concerns with Gore’s plan. So, we can consider number two answered. (By the way, you could have very easily looked at the NRA site yourself; I think it took me all of two minutes to find the relevant quote. By not doing this it undermines your case that you didn’t want a debate.)

Question number one (which seemed to me, to be your impetus for posting the topic), however, cannot be answered factually, it calls for opinions and, as you saw in your thread, there were several different opinions of the flaws in Gore’s licensing scheme. But then, an answer could be an opinion and not a hard fact. A case like that wouldn’t necessarily be disqualified as a GQ topic. However, as soon as someone begins to argue against those opinions it becomes a debate. Which is what you immediately did on your second post. You attempted to point out flaws in the responders’ reasonings.

And that is where the line between factual expressions and debate lies.

About This Message Board
For technical questions and concerns about the SDMB. This is also the place for practice posts.

The BBQ Pit
If you gotta flame, do it here. This is the place for all complaints and other discussion regarding administration of the SDMB

I said I was going to drop the subject, and I am, but I have a related technical question about the thread that I started, so I think it belongs in this forum…
bibliophage sez:

This is not an exact match to the subtext that introduces that forum, but if this is a valid assessment, then I was wrong to post my question in that forum.

The subtext for Great Debates sez:

Clearly, the subject I brought up does not fit here either.
So, where exactly does a subject like the one I opened belong? I’m happy to admit my stupidity for posting in the wrong forum… Now if someone would just direct me to the right forum for these kinds of topics…
Biting my tongue, not to respond to UncleBeer’s comments…

Er, go ahead, Joey. What about Beer’s comments were incorrect?

actually, gun control issues exactly **do ** fit into the classification of “long running discussions of the great questions of our time”. along with “which is better Coke or Pepsi”, and other debates of epic proportions.

wring:

Gun control, as a general subject, I agree. Gore’s specific proposal regarding photo licensing - I don’t agree. But Hey, I’ve been wrong before.
andros:

This is not the place for that discussion. I’m a bit “gun shy” at this point… Where, exactly, would I start such a thread to address my issues with UncleBeer’s comments?

** Joey ** you weren’t asking what **were ** Gores proposals for gun control, you were getting into why they would or would not work. That’s the debate part.

We can agree, for example that the proposal contained language about “gun ids” for instance. However, what ** effect ** that would have on violence, death, rights and civil liberties in this country is a matter of debate. and, when you got into assessing things like the value of a single human life saved, that brings it out of the “what does it do” and smack dab into the “why would or wouldn’t it work” category.

Kinda like the difference 'tween asking “what is Bush’s tax plan” vs. evaluating if it’s reasonable to believe that it would actully get implimented. does that clear it up?

And, I believe that comments and questions about moderator’s behavior ** as moderators ** goes into the pit, regardless of intent to flame or not. Seems to be the phrase “This is the place for all complaints and other discussion regarding administration of the SDMB” is all inclusive. You also have the option of e-mailing him personally to get a clear idea.

I’ve done that when a mod made a general statement directed at a group of posters to ask if there was something in what I’d posted that was inappropriate, and got a well reasoned and quick response.

The General Questions forum is for factual material. It’s true that sometimes a factual question can lead to a factual debate, and that’s still in bounds for GQ. What we had there, however, was a debate of opinions. If we’re going to try to fit all of those into GQ as well, then we might as well not even have a Great Debates forum. Factual debate on the subject of that thread might have been something along the lines of “The president of the NRA says that he opposes Gore’s plan because it wouldn’t effect criminals” “No, he doesn’t… In a statement six months later, he retracted that and said that he changed his mind”. This is factual, because the second person can then provide a cite showing that the president of the NRA did, in fact, say that. This is not what we had there. What we had there was responses along the lines of “I think that’s a silly idea” and “if it saves lives, it’s worthwhile”. Neither of these can be proven or disproven, and are thus non-factual.

I suppose that it could be argued that the thread ought to have been moved, rather than closed, but we already have plenty of gun control threads in GD, and I’m sure that this discussion could easily be continued in one of those. No sense having, as JoeyBlades said, yet another gun debate.

I gotta agree with the crowd here, it was a Great Debates topic. I’m sorry you didn’t get exactly what you wanted, Joey.

And I’m moving this thread to the Pit, which is really where it should be.

your humble TubaDiva
Administrator

This now looks like as good a place as any, JoeyB. Fire away.

wring:

Not me. I was trying to head off those discussions. I wanted to know why some opposed a specific element. I did challenge the validity of their beliefs. Was I debating? Yes, clearly. Was I Great debating? Not so clear (at least, to me).

That wasn’t exactly what I was doing, but let’s not debate that here.

Yep, I was wrong to criticize manhattan’s actions in ATMB. My fault for not reading the details for the pit. I thought this was the place for adminsitrative issues - I was wrong.

Chronos:

That was precisely what I was trying to avoid. It would be impossible to sort through all of the congestion in that debate and cull out only the specific points I was trying to get at. Plus, I was afraid that the specific topic I was trying to address would be polluted by hundreds of tangents…
For those who care, I’ve posted my ‘issues’ with UncleBeer’s responses in the following thread (in the pit): The trouble with uncles and beer

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=43026

Yeah, yeah Soupy. We’re all very familiar with your “The SDMB is an oppressive entity” routine. It’s getting a little old now.

If you’d like to contribute to the specific issue the OP brings up then fine. If you’d like to bitch about the McCarthyistic practices of the SDMB in general start your own thread.

We have our own guidelines here at the SDMB. What belongs in what forum, what consitutes getting banned and so forth. The overwhelming majority of posters here have no problem with these guidelines. You apparently do, Soupy. That’s peachy, but my advice is to take the next train out of Salem if you feel so oppressed.

Ya better get on that train quickly though, Soupy, I see the villagers gathering rocks on the hillside over there.