Can’t remember the spoken name of the language that was supposed to be universal, but why didn’t this catch on?
Sign Language.
I’ve studied it and and communicate with anyone that knows it.
It takes care of any dialect/accent, in addition to any sounds not known to different cultures. i.e. ‘l’ in asian countries. The same motion can mean “eat” “car” “desk” etc in any culture.
Oh yeah, esperanto ws the language.
Are you suggesting that “sign language” is a universal language? If so, whoever taught it to you forgot to mention one very important fact. Your location field says North Dakota, so I’m assuming you learned ASL - American Sign Language. You’ll be able to communicate with other ASL speakers, that’s true. But you won’t be able to communicate with sign language speakers in China, Spain, or for that matter in other English-speaking countries, unless they happen to have learned ASL as well. There are many sign languages in the world. So sure, you can speak with other ASL speakers; that’s not more significant than the fact that I can speak with other Norwegian speakers.
And ASL (and any other sufficiently large sign language) does have dialects and accents. In the past, when most deaf children were sent to boarding schools from an early age, they would pick up the dialect of their school. Now, in the United States, most deaf children are mainstreamed into their neighborhood schools (a practice that’s not without its problems, but that’s not relevant to the point here), and tend to pick up the dialect of the first Deaf community they come in contact with.
ASL might work as a universal language, but it faces one serious hurdle in addition to the problems that spoken would-be-universal languages like Esperanto and widely used natural languages (like English and French) face. Sign languages have a status problem: many who do not know about them believe that they are simple pantomime games, without grammar or rules, unsuitable for anything but basic communication, and that those who speak sign language instead of an oral language are not intelligent. Trying to convince people to learn such a language against their own prejudices would be an uphill struggle.
I vaguely remember that a signed pidgin was used for basic communication among some Indian nations of the Great Plains of North America. Maybe someone else can fill in the details. But that wasn’t a language, it was a basic system that could communicate what was needed and that was all.
An idea created in the twilight days of the British Empire.
A simplified form of English, that was easy to teach, & easy to learn.
We need to revive it.
Heh. Yeah, “universal” languages. That was a set of jokes that went on long after they stopped being funny. Esperanto solved nothing, since it was just another Eurohash and its phonology included sounds that are difficult for many people to pronounce. (Try getting somebody from Guandong to do the Esperanto “r”, for example.)
As for “Basic English”. Its failure was grandly deserved. It als fell far short of its goal.
I have a copy of the New Testament in Basic English, which I bought as a curiosity.
I found Basic English really frustrating to read because the limited vocabulary turns every single sentence into a rambling, awkward mess; for example:
NASB:“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Basic English: “The wind goes where its pleasure takes it, and the sound of it comes to your ears, but you are unable to say where it comes from and where it goes: so it is with everyone whose birth is from the Spirit.”
Blech
Mangetout: Could you post the ISBN of that Basic English New Testament?
Dogface: And yet, there are plenty of Chinese members of Esperanto clubs–even in China. Care for another invalid stab at why Esperanto’s so bad?
Well, if you’re Chinese and you’re going to learn a European language anyway, then why not go straight for English? Or French, or German. They’re probably just as hard to learn for a Cantonese speaker as Esperanto, but the difference is that learning them will let the Chinese person communicate with a lot, lot more people.
Here’s one: It’s nothing but a hobby for effete ivory-tower types and is supported by a bunch of howling cultists who can’t get the point that the real world simply has no interest in conducting business in Esperanto.
Suggested experiment: Get a job at any corporation that conducts international trade. After you are hired, refuse to communicate in any language except for Esperanto. Record how quickly you are terminated. Repeat until reality sinks in.
That’s just stupid, Dogface. I don’t recall anyone saying that Esperanto is meant to replace a particular language.
Lite: What is the question to be answered here?
Business may not be conducted in Esperanto, but Esperanto does have its advantages over English.
Once I learned Esperanto, I stopped having to pay for lodging when I travel. Nearly everywhere I go, there are Esperantists who are willing to host Esperantists for free. That result in considerable travel savings. You can’t stay somewhere for free just because you speak English.
And as a booklover, I prefer reading translations of Asians in Esperanto because the likelihood is greater that they were made by a native speaker. Take for example the works of Kawabata in English. They were translated by Edward Seidensticker, who has been criticised by his Waley-influenced stereotyping translation style. But Kawabata in Esperanto was translated by Konisi Gaku, an expert in 20th century Japanese literature. The translation of the Chinese Hong lou meng in Esperanto is also superior to the Waley-influenced English translation.
Incidentally, most Esperantists are entirely upfront about the lackings of the language. An Esperantist active in the movement will not call it a perfect panacea. You talk about howling cultists, but I find most of the howlers know little of the language, live on the periphery of the movement, and are never seen at congresses or conferences in Esperanto. Take Monty, for example. Now, he is not a howling cultist, he’s generally a nice guy. But I find it odd that he’s always first on the board to defend Esperanto even though I’ve never seen him at the UK or IJK.
Now back to the OP. ASL is not a universal language. However, a universal sign language has been invented, Gestuno, which has been used at several international conferences for the deaf.
UnuMondo
Ahhh…when a Univeral Language is created, & we can all communicate, then shall true Peace be achieved. :smack: :dubious:
My aching bunyons it will, if you quibblers are anything to go by…
Sorry, I just had to object to this, too. Yes, in the west, many if not most Esperantists are intellectuals. However, the situation is rather different in Asia. Most of the Chinese Esperantists I’ve met are working class, who have no particular interest in things linguistic outside of Esperanto. Many Japanese Esperantists are rural farmers (possibly because of the Oomoto demographic), not ivory-tower in the least bit.
If you want to complain about Esperanto, fine. Just do some research first. There have been plenty of studies - indepdent studies, not done just by Esperantists themselves - of the Esperanto movement and its demographics. The Esperanto movement has produced at least a thousand doctorial theses in sociology.
UnuMondo
What Unumondo said.
The creator of Esperanto believed that a universal language was a necessary but not sufficient condition for world peace. Esperanto was his attempt to remove just one roadblock to peace.
Every little bit helps…
UnuMondo: UK or IJK? Might these be IRC chatrooms?
UK = Universala Kongreso, where anyone who’s really involved in the movement goes at least every few years
IJK = Internacia Junulara Kongreso, where anyone who’s really involved in the movement and still young or young at heart goes at least every few years.
I’m frankly shocked you didn’t know those acronyms and yet you call yourself an Esperantist. That’s like saying you’re an Esperanto speaker and not knowing who Zamenhof is, or what UEA is.
UnuMondo
In an attempt to get the thread back on topic (I know I haven’t been helping). Here’s some info about Gestuno:
From Wikipedia: www.wikipedia.org
So as you can see, there is a universal sign language. But it is meant to be universal for the deaf, not for all peoples in general.
UnuMondo
Well, UM; I do know who Zamenhof was and am aware of the UAE (both the organization and the country ;)); however, I’ve actually never encountered “Universala Kongreso” and “Internacia Junulara Kongreso” as just abbreviations. I would dearly love to attend the UK though. Maybe next time, my funding will be greater than the empty wallet I currently call my bank account.
Re the mention of the Wikipedia above: I find it quite cool that you can get the article about Gestuno in Esperanto!
er…UEA. Criminy, I gotta quit posting when I’ve just got back from school!