University of Phoenix - legitimate degree or joke?

[edwardcoast]

@Enginerd

That’s a fair question. Looking at U of P online, they offer two Bachelor of Science programs that could potentially be preparation for my field. The closer I look at those programs, though, the more skeptical I’m getting. U of P offers classes in 5 weeks that we teach in 15 weeks. They teach general chemistry without a lab and geology without field trips. The most suspect thing, though, is that they allow up to 30 credits within the BS program to be earned “experientially” - by writing a 3500-4000 word essay about the course subject and your life experiences that relate to it. In a real school, you might be exempted from a required class based on past experience, but you’d still have to replace those credits with another elective class. An on-line school offering credit for “life experience” is a huge red flag.

In terms of what ftg is saying, I would start with the assumption that the U of P degree was about the credential rather than the education, and the student would have to somehow convince me otherwise. (S)he could enroll in some of the core grad classes in the field at this or another school (on his/her own dime - the credits here are considerably less expensive than U of P credits) and do well. That would give the student contact with faculty who can better describe them than the U of P “faculty,” and successfully completing those classes would offer an assurance that the student can perform at the appropriate academic level. That’s probably the best way.

Work experience also counts a lot with me, and I’m generally willing to take on students with lower GPAs if they have an employment record that shows them handling progressively responsible work - after all, that’s how I ended up in grad school. By demanding work experience, though, I’m just passing the buck - the student would still have to get that degree past a hiring manager somewhere. Bottom line is that a student with a degree from University of Phoenix is in worse shape than a student with no college experience whatsoever, because the U of P grad paid close to $50,000 for a useless degree.

Those online degree providers prey on students who don’t know about these questions. First generation college students, in particular, are encouraged by everyone to go to college. It’s great when they do, and it’s really, really great when they succeed there. But because they’re the first in their family to attend college, they don’t get good advice about what to expect. What’s important when choosing a school, and what’s pretty much the same everywhere? What is the student responsible for vs. what responsibilities does the school have? What do employers look for when hiring college grads? Without this background knowledge, first generation college students are easy pickings for diploma mills and other online frauds.

Thanks for answering.

From what you are saying, an online degree from a no-name place or not a traditional university is going to cause more problems than they solve for a student. I was talking about this just last night with a friend who was under the assumption the cost was much lower with online courses and I pointed out, that was not the case at all. It wasn’t like you could get an undergraduate degree for $2K, it was still an expensive investment.

If I didn’t already have a degree, what I would do is go part-time to the best college I could afford to get in within a reasonable commuting distance. If some of the courses could be taken online or transferred in from a lower priced community college to the “big name” place, I would do it. But I think in general the online degree from a non-traditional college isn’t a real advantage. Personally if I put in the effort, and believe me, there is a lot of effort into getting a degree, I better not have to spend time explaining and justifying it to people.

I guess there are also people who simply want to put on their wall that they have a degree or a Masters, just to show they have it. There might be others who feel they are too old to go back to college, but that’s what Continuing Studies in colleges is for. I suspect there are some government jobs where they might not care where the degree is from as long as it is accredited in the field they want you to have it in.

[even_sven]

@edwardcoast

I’ve always felt the reason to discourage or reject credits from other colleges was simply to pay their own tuition revenue. One college told me that if I tried to pass out of a class, I would have to pay the tuition for the class anyway regardless if I passed or failed their test. So what would most people do unless they were in a huge hurry? They ended up taking the class.

I think all colleges have a rule where you have to take the last X number of credits at their college in order to get a degree from them. Like the last 30 or 60 credits, something like that. So if you need 90 (my numbers might be off) for a total degree and you transferred in, they accepted every single credit and you just need one more class to get your degree, they will make you take the last minimum requirement there which could extend your time there another year or two especially if you are going part time.

The other part of going to college is networking. I don’t know if there is a chance to do this with online courses where you get to know other students with shared interests and end up staying in contact with each other. This can be very helpful in finding out about good jobs before they are announced or using them as a reference.

Really, really good colleges have a whole way of thinking, and you are missing out a lot if you don’t do the majority of your coursework with them. An economist from Chicago, a diplomat from Georgetown, a public health expert from Chapel Hill-- I expect them all to come with a certain perspective, and they’d be missing out on that if they got most of their credits somewhere else. The best degrees are much, much more than the sum of their parts.

[Killemall]

Gotta add my two cents here.

I only made it to the 9th grade. I was not stupid, I actually scored higher on regional test than most others and was co stantly in the 97 and up percentile, but I simply did not care one bit about high school. I never took books to school and often went to school drunk. My only purpose was girls and fighting during high school. Rediculous, but I was young and dumb.

Luckily my principle saw I had issues and helped me to get an GED at 17. A few months later I was 18 and serving in the Army as an infantry man. My GT score was a 120, which was high enough to be offerred many prestigous military jobs, but that young dumb guy just had to be infantry.

Fast forward 14 years and that trouble maker had been honorably discharged and was since working as a federal police officer for the US Government. Suddenly at 32 years old he realized that he should take advantage of his post 911 military benefits. In all honesty the goal was not education or the diploma, afterall he was clearing 70k a year from his federal job and another 10k a year from Veterans Affairs disibility benifits.

As painstakingly sad as it is to say…The goal was simply to have his classes paid for and also receive a hefy $2500.00 per month for his cost of living while attending college.

Attending college had been decided, but what school…University of Phoenix was local, offerred on campus classes ( he was terrified of computer only learning) and best of all, attending on campus classes just one day a week for four hours constituted as going to school full time (so he would get his full $2500.00 per month).

At this time the thought of attending any college was scary. A GED 15 years ago is not exactly confidence inspiring. However it was not about pedigree. It was about that one day a week for four hours while other colleges were saying 2,3 or even 4 days a week. Remember he was still working full time as a police officer.

I am really just trying to paint a picture here. Many people are in their 30s or 40s and need an institution that works with them and their schedule. Many of these people are not computer savvy and do not wish to take online classes. A huge misconception is that UoP is all online. Everyone I know, including myself attended UoP on campus. I did know one girl who attended online for half her degree and later transitioned to on campus classes.

As to the learning, heres the brillant part…That dumb kid who cared nothing about highschool, who later turned into that dumb 32 year old who only cared about college for the money…Well he actually started learning and caring about his education within 6 months of attending UoP. The learning was often quite challenging, but also fun (despending on the instructor).

After 3 years and 10 months I graduated with a BS in Business and a 3.3 GPA. Not an amazing GPA, but surely not bad for a high school drop out.

UoP gave me the opertunity to see what I was capable of. Many schools would have never allowed a GED toting guy to attend their schools. It cannot all be about pedigree. We all come from differing walks of life. Reputation only goes so far. My personal lawyer went to Yale and I just love telling people how awesome she is and how she attended Yale. But when you are talking high and mighty of university of Podunk and speaking lowly of UoP. I have to chuckle just a little, as in the big picture no one really cares about either of our schools for bragging rights.

Ill end with this. Since getting my bachelors from Phoenix I have been offered and excepted a higher paying federal job that is tapping on the 6 figures door. I am in no way implying that a bachelors from phoenix gets you a 100k job (much more likely 40-45k if just starting off in the world) but my diploma allowed me to check boxes for federal jobs that I never could before.

I am currently enrolled in the UoP MBA program and I hope it will also bring me more fun learning and more financial gain in the future.

On a side note. 1 out of 5 people have a bachelors degree. Im proud to be one of them, no matter what school as long as its accredited.

[ftg]

PBS Frontline recently did a program about for-profit colleges (UofP was sometimes mentioned in it). It was a tale of horrors. Watch it.

The program made it abundantly clear: You get a far cheaper and better quality education going to your local public CC/state school.

I really, really have no idea why people pay such an astoundingly high premium for so badly respected degrees.

With the Dept. of Education cracking down on these places and their disreputable business practices, UofP has gone thru rounds of layoffs. It hasn’t gone bust like Corinthian or ITT, but it would have to be a serious concern to students. Even for graduates, bankruptcy can cause huge headaches regarding proof of classes/degrees. Never mind for currently enrolled students.

[MsRobyn]

@edwardcoast

The other part of going to college is networking. I don’t know if there is a chance to do this with online courses where you get to know other students with shared interests and end up staying in contact with each other. This can be very helpful in finding out about good jobs before they are announced or using them as a reference.

I have a master of arts in teaching degree from the University of Southern California that was entirely online. I’m still friends with many of my classmates on Facebook, and there are groups for the different cohorts where people post jobs at their schools. I’m also part of the USC alumni network, so that provides some support, as well. I don’t know about other online programs, however.

Killemall, congratulations on graduating college and working on an MBA. I am going to offer some advice, however. Please consider taking a freshman composition course at your local community college. When you have an advanced degree, you are expected to communicate at a professional level, both orally and in writing. Please do yourself and your career a favor and learn how to do that.

[ftg]

Networking?

Sheesh.

I was a college prof for decades. For Bachelors and Masters students, getting jobs almost never had anything to do with networking. For PhD students looking for academic jobs, then someone in your department having an in with someone at the other department helps. But it matters little if you’re going into industry.

None of the family members whose initial job hunts I know about “networked” into their first jobs.

And certainly using networking for later jobs is uncommon. All the relatives I know who’ve gotten new jobs did so purely by applying for positions.

[Jennshark]

While a grad student in CA I taught at a for profit school that put an enormous amount of pressure on profs to pass students. I had an online student who handed in a master’s thesis that was 100% plagiarized. I failed her and the dept dean changed the grade after the student complained.

At my CC 80% of faculty in my lib arts program have a Ph.D. We have many profs with Ivy League degrees because the academic market is so shitty - an applicant with a degree from U of P or similar school wouldn’t maken be considered.

[Killemall]

Thank you MsRobyn

Luckilly for me my jobs are always in the law enforcement and national security fields. So my writing gets by. I do enjoy creative writing classes, so I might take you up on that.

[msmith537]

@ftg

Networking?

Sheesh.

I was a college prof for decades. For Bachelors and Masters students, getting jobs almost never had anything to do with networking. For PhD students looking for academic jobs, then someone in your department having an in with someone at the other department helps. But it matters little if you’re going into industry.

None of the family members whose initial job hunts I know about “networked” into their first jobs.

And certainly using networking for later jobs is uncommon. All the relatives I know who’ve gotten new jobs did so purely by applying for positions.

Applying for a job is one of the least effective methods. I wouldn’t rule it out as it’s also the easiest. But I would say at least 50% of interviews I went on were due to networking with someone.

@Lowdown

I can’t tell if you’re being touchy or goofy! Help me out!

I don’t know if you are following this resurrected zombie thread, but kind of serious.

@Lowdown

They’re absolutely ambitious. (You’re going to have to convince me on smarter than others.) Being ambitious, they’re more concerned with status. Is that a reasonable assumption? I think it is. Therefore, it’s not unthinkable that there’s going to be a skewing of perception on the importance of going to schools XYZ over ABC, whether it’s justified or not. I’m just saying that ability is more an attribute of the individual than it is of the program they attended. Harvard vs UoP, yeah, I get that, but random online MBA degree vs random brick-and-mortar one? How much difference is there, really? (I don’t know, I’m asking.)

I guess the answer is “depends”. To keep things in perspective, keep in mind I’ve spend most of my career working in startups, Wall Street firms and management consultancies where pretty much everyone comes from top tier schools and MBA programs. Most of my friends are investment bankers, lawyers, management consultants, venture capitalists, and so on. If you want to work in top firms like McKinsey, Bain or Goldman Sachs, Blackrock, Google, and others, there very much is a bias towards particular schools. OTOH, if you just want to do management consulting, investment banking, investment management or tech, there are always other options.

@Lowdown

I went to a dinky little school and did worry about that. Sometimes I still get self conscious about it. While I’m pretty sure I could have handled any program, there’s always that nagging doubt, you know? Even though I do software development for one of the top IT services companies in the world, on a project worth millions, and I’m demonstrably better at it than most of these guys…I’m still secretly thinking What if I suck? As if missing out on that group project I could have had in Advanced Linear Programming at Stanford is holding me back.

What I’ve found is that once you reach a certain level of intelligence and competency, success is more about being willing to put up with all the bullshit and facetime hours (or starting your own company).

After that, it’s just settling into a place where you feel comfortable.