US image worsens

Great Debates
261

Comparing Hitler to Bush is so ridiculous stupid and shows such an immense lack of historical knowledge that it’s quite amazing how it keep recurring, if for no other reason than Hitler was a great (and terrible) man while Bush is just a man (and compared to Hitler’s talents a mediocre amateur). Also, as I say whenever these stunningly stupid comparisons pop up, such serve no other purpose than to dust off and present the horrors of Nazism in a more acceptable light, and making light of the real victims of Nazism. You Roland Saul are running errands for the brown-shirts.

This thread is pretty much a train wreck, I don’t think it’ll make anything much worse if I go on a bit with the “like” thing.

It has long been my impression that there is no critic of the US like a US critic. Which is praiseworthy and natural of a sort (since you should be the best to know what’s to criticise). Me I don’t think dislike of the US (and it’s current policies) is so widespread (in Europe at least, based on personal experience mostly) as some of the Americans in this thread seem to believe, but since I’m not American I don’t really care much one way or the other, if you wish to believe you’re reviled; by all means go ahead, knock yourself out.

The French, your favourite prugelknapf, on the other hand, to my knowledge, don’t much care either, whether they’re liked or not (as a nation). Personally I pretty much like the French (nothing in the world as attractive as a French woman!), I have several French friends here in Copenhagen, and last summer I spend some of my vacation in France (great country, you’re only cheating yourself if you boycott it on these silly grounds). This is what I have observed of the French. They don’t give a rat’s arse if the Americans dislike them; actually they take something of a pride in it. And the thing with the freedom fries, they thought it was hilarious.

Meanwhile in Denmark my current mother country, this amusing little thing happened recently: There was much consternation in Denmark when bin Laden came with his last cry for attacks against the US, Britain and Norway. Norway for Christ’s sake! Here Denmark had gone backing the Americans and all, and then they wouldn’t even hate us. Talk about being cheated!

Personally would I be greatly moved if 99% of Jordanians though Denmark was the arsehole of the world. Not in the least.

  • Rune
262

There’s a big difference between “comparing” and “equating”.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with comparing Bush and Hitler. Comparison is a process of noting similarities and differences.

For example:

Similarities - Bush and Hitler were both leaders of their respective countries.

Differences - Hitler advocated and caused the killing of several million Jews and Roms. Bush didn’t.

Similarities - Bush and Hitler used lies and deception to gain popular support for morally repugnant acts.

Differences - Those morally repugnant acts were greatly different in scale.

Comparing Bush with Hitler is perfectly valid, despite your own delicate sensibilities. :rolleyes:

263

Gee whiz, and here I thought I was trying to illustrate how some of the obscene manipulation (of an otherwise reasonable national mentality) behind this “war” reminds me of the brownshirts.

Oh well. I guess I’m outed. :smack: Praise God and pass the Zyklon B. ( Another fine product brought to you by the interests of freedom and righteousness.)

264

P.S. I ws trying to keep in line with the OP by illustrating what I perceive to be the possible reasons behind the deepening stains on America’s image. And as my historical knowledge grows, the parallels between Bush and Hitler in terms of media manipulation and disinformation become clearer. I’m not saying that the two are alike, but that Bush is using some of the manipulative techniques perfected by Hitler. IMHO, the Bush administration doesn’t do it as well, granted that they are faced with an entrenched populist media like the internet.

Slight hijack…Check out the connections that the Bush family had with the Nazi administration, the profits they made from that war, and the devious assortment of tricks they used to hide that from the taxman and world scrutiny. Many parallels there also in terms of American corporate profiteering from both sides of the conflict.

I believe that corporate interests have a far larger influence on this military action than do genuine altruistic motives. This becomes clear as one follows the money trail, and further illustrates the image problems as stated in the OP.

265

reminds me of a joke;

Everybody goes on about how good German propaganda was during the war.

Pfah! Allied propaganda was much better.
We believe that one even to this day.

266

Seems the bushites are always associating diplomacy to appeasment… that is dead wrong ! Diplomacy even during war was/is always important and leaving it aside Bush style is a very bad mistake… appeasement was a tactic of Britain 1930’s due to lack of military strength relative to Nazi Germany. The US wasnt “appeasing” terrorists and radical muslims… it was simply “neglecting” them before.

Hermann Goering's quote is VERY relevant. Bush might not be a fascist... not yet... but he is using the same techniques... the same logic for war. The people are reacting the same way too.

Chamberlain might be compared to Bush in one aspect thou... neglecting reality... Bush is doing the same thing for the environment that Chamberlain did to Hitler. There is no Global Warming in our time mentality... Dont like Kyoto ? Make something else ! Transfer technology to reduce emissions in other countries... but dont act like its not there and boost oil use.
267

Once again, reality imitates satire…

http://www.theonion.com/onion3911/us_forms_own_un.html

268

Quotation War ? Lets do it ! (I will use only 2 authors…)

Ignorance, the root and the stem of every evil.

  • Plato

The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.
-Plato

Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.
-J. R. R. Tolkien

It’s a job that’s never started that takes the longest to finish.

  • J. R. R. Tolkien

The partisan, when he is engaged in a dispute, cares nothing about the rights of the question, but is anxious only to convince his hearers of his own assertions.
-Plato, Dialogues, Phaedo

Everything that deceives may be said to enchant.
-Plato, The Republic

Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.

  • J. R. R. Tolkien (withdrawl from Iraq ?)

Mankind censure injustice fearing that they may be the victims of it, and not because they shrink from committing it.
-Plato, The Republic

If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.

  • J. R. R. Tolkien

The beginning is the most important part of the work.

  • Plato, The Republic

The people have always some champion whom they set over them and nurse into greatness…This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.
-Plato, The Republic

269

oooppps… forgot two important ones:

When the tyrant has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or treaty, and there is nothing to fear from them, then he is always stirring up some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader.

Plato (c.428-348 BC)
Republic, Book VIII
Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber.

Plato (c.428-348 BC)

270

Why the heck do you have to put a smiley after talking about killing, bombing, etc everytime you post? It´s really getting to my nerves. :mad:

271

WinstonSmith

My thoughts exactly. Which makes me wonder how many REAL Americans are in this thread.

Desmostylus Be it “comparing” or “equating”, It makes no sense and you know it. Have you heard of apples and oranges?
And *my * “delicate sensibilities” have nothing to do with this.
Merely those who’ve lost people in Hitler’s gas chambers.

Oh, about the smilies, Ale. They’re getting on mine too.

272

Do you know that you have used more smilies on this page than I have so far ?

Your two contributions on this page so far, deal primarily about me. Are we here to debate the topic, or are we here to talk about me ?

Myself, I don’t really care for your smilies either :smack:, but since I’m not a fascist, I don’t try to dictate what other people’s debating style should or should not be.

If my smilies bother you so much, compared to everybody else’s smilies, then pit me.

:dubious:

273

Going back to the subject, coming from France where anti-americanism has peaked, I can tell you everything is not about

  • religion
  • rebellion against the first power of the world

it’s also about ideology.

In France (Iwouldn’t generalize in Europe…) half of the country is either communist, either socialist. And they hate the US because it’s a capitalistic non-social country, period. You can show them whatever american marvel, of all the marvellous persons that I met here, they wouldn’t bulge. They’re locked into their ideology in hating free market, lack of social welfare, wall street, etc, etc.
(note to americans : to understand, it’s like for you the word “taxes” ; it became an ideological bad word, even if your hometown roads became merely gravel…).

Old previously nationalised TV channels, full of anti-americans are broadcasting heavily on social issues inside to give the tone and what Bush did wrong this time on the outside to keep up the hatred.

All of the political movements these pasts years have been fueled by hard-left wings of anti-americanism. Everytime the G7 (or G8, I don;t follow much :wink: ) gathers, you have huge demonstration against free market, etc… Remember Seattle…

So don’t forget the old communist foe, because he didn’t forget you.

of yeah, and French don’t like the way Americans treat industrialized food (Genetical modifications, beef growth hormones…), but that’s another subject :wink:

274

Note that I mentioned the deaths of the Jews and Roms before you did.

And yes, I’ve heard of apples and oranges. I’ve actually eaten quite a few of each.

I’ve also heard of the phrase “comparing apples with oranges”.

I’d suggest that you have absolutely no idea what that phrase means.

275

I think a lot of people just do not realize how much more difficult it is for the USA to attain its objectives if it has a huge fraction of public opinion against it. Often the policy has been to court the government of the country and screw the people but this has very often backfired when the people ovrthrew the government and implemented a government which wa as anti-American as it could be. Iran and Cuba are good examples of this. They have been thorns in the side of the US for decades and they are the direct result of American policy. Having public opinion in your favor, or, at least, not against you, makes attaining your ends so much easier. Today Pakistan is a clear example. The government is much more pro-American than the people. The last thing America needs is for that government to be overthrown and an antiAmerican government set up in its place. That would make things really interesting.

So, even the US puppet government disagrees with the USA and is against Turkish troops coming in.

It would be foolish for the USA to dismiss the opinions of all the nations represented in this meeting. They and their people can cause the USA lots of headaches.

276

If they actually have a real interest, and they are truly representative of their people, I think we should take their opinions into account.

But I have no patience for despots doing everything they can to ensure that a liberal Iraq doesn’t become a threat to them by its existence.

277

So the USA is qualified to judge who is a threat to who much better that the interested parties? So the USA should be not only the world policeman but also the world’s babysitter? Come on!

278

You say ‘interested parties’ as if though that means something. The only interest these Islamic nations have is A) Appeasing their own Islamist factions, and B) Taking the US down a notch. That is all, and don’t try to assign some sort of special insight or value to their ‘opinions’.

If Iraq succeeds as a Middle Eastern ‘democracy’ of sorts, the various Islamic nations out there, which are generally despotic regimes of some degree, will potentially face massive uprisings when and if their people realize, “Hey, we too can live in a non-shithole”. The ruling classes of said nations have a vested interest in seeing America fail.

279

Did America ever have a legitimate interest in seeing democracy sprout there before ? No.

Why now ? Because christian virtue cleared Bush of all vestiges of cold war manipulation ? Give me a break… Pakistan has a despot of sorts and the US is all too happy. This isnt about democracy but US interests… short term too.

So you might criticize the Muslims factions... they are doing exactly the same that Bush is doing... using the same religious and messianic BS language.
280

It’s about both. Sure, if there was no US interest at stake we would never have been interested in democracy in Iraq. But, since we are there, that’s what we are trying to achieve. Although we’ll sometimes take a shortcut and sponsor a coup that will put in a friendly despot, when we actually spend American lives and put troops on the ground and spend billions of dollars, there is no outcome that would justify all that short of a real democracy.