reviled (even more) for our perceived bullying of a smaller nation
looked upon with gratitude that we removed Saddam
warily regarded as a dangerous and powerful geo-political entity that must be temporarily endured and will eventually pass away
Now that we’re a month or two past the Iraq campaign were does Arabic world opinion, (to the extent that a thing this nebulous and differentiated can be characterized) stand with respect to the US in general terms. Has anything really changed with respect to Arabic world opinion about us?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by astro * Are we -
[/QUOTE
I doubt it , the military only used a fraction of what it could have done. And what it did do , was to re-enforce the lesson from 91
I would have to say yes , as long as the current administration is in power , everyone else is gonna accept him at his word.
If so , no biggie. Its not like a popularity contest , some things come with the territory.
Would be nice , but I doubt it. Saddam was average for middle eastern leaders over the last 50 years. I bet the Iranians could tell stories about SAVAK .
This is a bad thing ? and umm if you just meant the current administration , you do realize that no matter who is in power after 2004 , whats proven to work , will most likely be still in use
You really need to ask this question in about 5 years , not 6 weeks after the fact , global relations are often tectonic in real life , it takes time for an event to happen , to settle in and let the dust settle .
The Arabs are the losers , so of course they are probably a little pissed , look at germany and japan , post 45 . Probably had more than one person moan for the old days.
No. Everyone was aware of America’s military might beforehand, which was why it was seen as bullying from the start (see 3.)
No. Fairly or not, Bush and his administration are perceived as pig-headed, obstinate and unyielding, not determined. Certainly there is now less respect than there ever was.
NB: there’s a difference between being feared for your attitude than respected. Respect implies admiration.
Yes
No. Fairly or not, no.
Not trying to be inflammatory, just honest about anecdotal colleague and media opinion here, plus government/official type comments in the press. And bear in mind the only press accessible to me here is English language media. Arabic language media would take a far, far stronger line. I think other Arab speakers here such as Coll have made this point before.
I would say overall there is a greater sense of hopelessness among Arabs now, despair that even strong western opinion opposing American will can do nothing (witness the UN/France/Germany). It’s led to greater despair about issues like Israel/Palestine, greater resentment, greater bitterness. Arabs are proud people, this has left them with a sense of impotency and shame. These emotions will fuel continued terrorism - or sympathies towards terrorism - among a certain segment of the community.
Perhaps what Americans would find most shocking and upsetting though, is their country’s lowered image in the eyes of many westerners here. Not brainwashed or activist type people, but educated and well-travelled businesspeople and expats, many of whom would number individual Americans among their colleagues and friends.
As Democratic as I am I have to admit that the paper tiger image we had disappeared as soon as Clinton left and the Republicans got back into the game. Besides that, I don’t see how anyone’s opinion about the US could have changed. On the contrary, kicking the shit out of a war weary shitty little country on no more than suspicion of stockpiling WoMD justified the image of the bully super power killing innocent and defenseless civilians.
Well, until somebody comes up with some of those WoMD, I think we’re pretty much at an impasse. Our President told us America was being defended from grave danger, and that Iraq had these weapons. Sure, they HAD them, but unless they hid them quite well, it appears they don’t anymore. That makes me wonder if we’re not being lied to. With the new allegations against Halliburton, I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if the rest of the world was convinced this was just a power play for oil. Myself, I think it was a smart move, eliminating a dictator and freeing so many people, but not so well thought out by our strategic department. What happens next certainly will aid in clarifying the United States’ global stance for any of those who haven’t convinced themselves already.
This isn’t really correct. The Arab world thought Saddam would put up a MUCH bigger fight. Even the Russian Generals described their state of mind as ‘shock’ at how quickly the Americans dispatched the Iraqi forces.
Also, there was a perception among many Arabs that Americans were paper tigers. They could bomb you from the air, but if they were on the ground all you had to do is bloody their noses and they would run away. Their experience with Americans in Beirut and elsewhere fed into this stereotype. That made Americans not just hated, but subject of scorn and condescension. Arabs may still hate the U.S., but they have a lot more respect for American soldiers now.
I disagree. Again, one of the results of this war was that it was a ‘wake-up’ call to Arabs. For decades other Arab countries looked the other way as Saddam brutalized his country. They made excuses for it, refused to believe it, etc. That also made it easier to depict Americans as the ‘evil ones’, and to cheer Saddam for standing up to them.
Today, the Arab street is more introspective. I’ve been following the english-language Arab press, and I’m running across lots of articles along the lines of, “Why were we so blind?”, or “How come it took the Americans to come in here and clean up our back yard?” and, “It’s time we stopped blaming America for everything that’s wrong in the middle east, and started looking at our own failed policies.”
Granted this type of introspection is still in the minority, but it was almost unheard of before.
You can hate the leadership of the United States, and still respect the military men fighting. Before the war, Arabs hated the United States, and treated the U.S. military with derision (see above). Today, they may still hate the United States, but there is a lot more respect for the men and women doing the fighting.
No. As I said, the attitude I’m seeing more and more is, “Why didn’t WE get rid of Saddam?” than, “Those evil Americans should have left him alone!”
This I agree with. I don’t see a lot of gratitude towards the U.S. - I’m sure most of the people in the Arab World would have preferred that Saddam fall any other way than from U.S. invasion. And before the war, they would rather have seen him not fall at all, although I think now there is a growing realization that he was bad news.
The adjectives I hear most when reading about the current state of the Arab mindset are confusion, sadness, and frustration. And sure, anger. But the emotions churning around in the middle east right now are a lot more complex than just millions of people walking around furious at the United States.
And Iraqis themselves are still glad the Americans are there, if you move away from the Palestine hotel and listen to people other than the ex-Baathists and other ex-regime bigwigs who had it good under Saddam.
I’m glad, Sam, Middle East expert has seen fit to correct items. Let me correct the corrections.
Sam knows this how? Well despite the all capitals, I can report by direct observation that the correction is, well, not correct at all.
Initially most people I heard accepted the Bush Administration’s coy and off-the-record assertions that it would be over in days. Indeed many in the Arab circles I travel in were sincerely hoping it would be over in days so that the humiliation would be brief and less painful.
No one in the least thought that Iraq would be able to hold off the United States.
After the war began and initial US claims turned out to be exagerated or mistaken, e.g. Umm Qasr – mind you this was natural – then people’s hopes began to get up.
Only that segment of the population that actually believes in miracles thought Iraq might win, the vast majority of folks I deal with, however, were of the hope that Iraq would make a good showing, based on those early encounters. Be the first Arab nation in a tangle with the West not to get its clock cleaned in a humiliating way. Given Iraq abilities, actually, that month of combat very much met expectations - picking at the Americans and giving them a bloody nose.
The quick fall of Baghdad, the melting away of Iraq forces after having held out for a month, was the shocker - I believe all around insofar as it had been expected they would melt away immediately, why after a month?
So, returning to the main point, with exception of that emotional month of hope – where I was finding even ordinarily pro American people rooting against the US in the hope perceived overweening arrogance would be punctered – Istara’s resume is accurate. Sam’s … well I have no fucking idea what second rate sources Sam get’s his ideas on opinion here from.
Besides Sam mixing two entirely different subjects, I believe you refer to Gulf War w/ Iraq I and not II. I missed in any event the Russian Generals’ commentary
Again Sam has some nice, even wonderful *** assertions *** on what Arabs think - as far as I can tell derived from what he thinks they think, given to my knowledge Sam knows jack about Arabs.
Certainly there has been impression, globally, given experience. Beirut, Somalia, etc. Americans allergic to body bags.
However the assertion that there is more respect for US soldiers is pure and utter fantasy. Wishful thinking. There is more awe of American technology, pure and raw might, but soldiers? Willingness to take casualties? That has yet to be demonstrated. American soldiers are seen on Arab TV walking around in armor, in packs, seen as pushing risk off on the Iraqis, not taking chances. The imperial overlords in the imperial armor willing to spend Arab blood, not terribly willing to take risks. That is the dominant image, Sam. You may not like it, you may disagree, but that’s the bloody image so don’t assert bullshite.
Of course Sam disagrees. But on what basis are we disagreeing Sam? Your preconceptions?
Wake up call? What was the wake up? That they have no control or influence on their destiny? That Arab leaders can’t come together for jackshit? That the US will support a nasty bastid until his usefulness runs out, then suddenly develop an overweening interest in “Arabs” well being?
What we have had to date, in the Arab world is a confirmation of its own weaknesses, a confirmation of prior beliefs. That’s it, period. A few intellectuals who already were trying to beat a drum for change have taken up the cry of your neo con amigos that this is a wake up call, but that opportunistic attempt is hardly the message getting out there. No, the message out there is the new Imperator will do what it wants, use any pretext or excuse to heap self-congratulation on itself, and then move on. Making the “world” safer against non-existant NBC stocks and bringing Iraqis a “better” life, and cholera.
Until real change and results are achieved in Iraq – non trivial tasks as I have warned, there is no wake up call per se, there is a confirmation of the grimmer view of the US.
Oh, Sam is following the English lang. press. Good. I am sure with his depth of experience he has a context to know what the “street” is saying, rather than that group of intellectuals who have made a profession of speaking to themselves.
I’ll tell you what is the actual state, Sam my man. Frustration and anger. Frustration and anger.
Bull fucking shit, Sam. Try to restrict your comments to something you actually know something about. Chest beating, “we’re so incompetent and bad” has been around since at least the 1980s and really has been flourishing in certain circles throughout the 1990s. The problem is there’s no real ideas on how to get beyond “We Suck.” I’ve seen this for a fucking decade, don’t fucking tell people it hardly existed before because that is fucking false.
The real danger in all this is the one set of folks who seem to have a clear project and seem to be able to get results are the Ikhouan, the al-Qaeda types. Organized, disciplined and ready to get beat on. No fucking accident what has happened recently, the timing was deliberate. And for the severely frustrated and disaffected, the combined display of bloody minded discipline with the ongoing anarchy in Iraq, ex the oil sector, is a powerful recruiting video. Fucking gift to al-Qaeda, wrapped in a motherfucking bow.
Well, soon to see more. I wonder how many place I know and are dear to me are going to get blown to fuck this year.
Whatever Sam. Try restricting your comments to something you know.
Yes, indeed, Sam is seeing more of that. I’m impressed.
As they were before, not much a fucking change there. However the anger and resentment level is measurably higher than before, and will get higher still if some movement on the Palestinian issue is not had.
More assertions from Sam, Arab World expert.
Funny that does not match what I hear. Not at all, from Iraqis and folks dealing with Iraqis. Not from journos, despite Sam’s sly bullshite smear.
Also - I may be wrong - but the impression I have got all along is that the expressed opinion (at least in English language, and to English language press) of expat Arabs in America, and perhaps even in the UK/Europe, is very different to that of Arabs in Arab or Middle Eastern countries.
istara makes a valid point. Asking folks who were exiled by Sadam Hussein years ago isn’t really getting an accurate picture of what Iraquis (and Arabs) who have never expatriated think.
For example, most Iranians who managed to get out (with pockets full) of Iran pre-revolution, who supported the Shah, would tell you that they WANT the US to go and ‘spread democracy’ to Iran NOW.
I think it is clear that their personal agenda doesn’t represent national opinion or the opinion of ALL long-time expats living in the west (myself included).
Dude, watch your language. I don’t want to see you banned again!
Other than that, I agree with the bulk of what you said. Sorry Sam, but what you’re describing are the delusional and whishful estimates of the american hawks.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Collounsbury * Well, soon to see more. I wonder how many place I know and are dear to me are going to get blown to fuck this year.
Well, I don’t know about you, but they just bombed my hometown (Casablanca). 44 dead or so. The ironic thing is that only 4 of them were foreigners (3 french and 1 spanish : most probably tourists. who in god’s name would want to kill tourists?) . More irony: they bombed a jewish cemetary and killed 4 muslims. In a twisted way, I’m kinda glad because I hope these murderers alienated most of their sympathizers in Morocco.
Frankly, I’m perplexed. How can a cell have the brains and the discipline needed to plan and carry out 5 synchronized bombings be so incompetent choosing times and targets?
Anyways, sorry about the slight hi-jack, there hasn’t been any thread commenting on this and I’ve been wanting to comment on it somewhere.
Yes, you’re right. I’m upset right now. Casa bladi.
I know. Casa is near and dear to me Akhaouya. I walked by Safir every day for on my way to work. Ripped my goddamned heart out to see those pictures.
Baqi fi mouchkil b-ittisal ila l-Maghrib min huna, ma hasoultche 'ala akhbar min ashabi illi sakinine fi Casa wa qurb hadi l-mintaqa. Khaif, baqi khaif.
Still I believe no problems, incha’allah…
Ma keinche l-Amerikan illi matou, hakeda ma keinche ihtemam. Such is life all around the world.
It is a terrible blow, however. Maghreb is going to hurt this year because of those qouaid who did this. I’m really upset about that, it was looking to be a decent year.
I am hoping however, that this will cut the grass from under the feet of the extremists, although I don’t know that al-'Adl wal Ihsaane really qualifies as such. Perhaps they will work against the extremists.
And you are attempting to imply that you are? You do nothing but spew the standard left-wing response to all the woes of the Middle East. Evil Israel. Warmongering America. Poor missunderstood <insert oppressed arabic group of the moment here>.
It doesn’t take much wit or actual knowledge to just spew forth what I can just get from Al Jazeera, or some other such ‘reliable’ news source, so save yourself the trouble.
Goodness gracious, Brutus. What absolute twaddle. You didn’t even read what he’s saying, did you?
If you actually took the time to read Coll’s post, you would notice that he’s describing the attitudes of the Arabs that he knows, and converses with every day, and lives amongst. You have no evidence to show that these are his opinions. Indeed, I don’t even think Coll is particularly leftist: he is, however, very well informed, and is in a decent position to answer the OP re the opinions of the Arab world. Whereas Sam is in rather less of a position to back up his assertions, which, based on my admittedly similar limited ability to judge, appear to be nonsense.
I am not implying it all, I am stating it.My record is here, if my knowledge is or has not held up to scrutiny, well there it is, bring the stuff to the table.
Left wing? Well, well, well. Brutus, how very relevant. ‘Left Wing’ indeed.
For those actually reading what I write, they will note I have never called Israel evil. I have criticized specific policies and pointed to specific interest groups in Israel. Specific. At the same time I have always noted an understanding for where the Israelis, as well as the Palestinians are coming from.
I’ve got good friends on both sides of the equation, see. Both sides. If, then, understanding things in a nuanced and realistic fashion is “Left Wing” and not going in for comic book morality politics is “Left Wing” then I am “Left Wing.” Of course by such standards politics is nothing but an empty abuse term morality play.
As for war mongering America: again the criticisms are specific and contextual. The fucking war was a fucking mistake based on trumped up assertions that have fallen apart. It is not in the national interest to blow one’s fucking credibility with lies and exagerations, and to undermine more important efforts, on the real terrorism front, for a baseless rush to war.
Have my comments been harsh and even brutal? Yes they have, becuase I am angered to see bad policy that gets people killed unnecessarily. Don’t like the facts laid out harshly, don’t read em, stick with the self-congratulatory comic books that pass as political commentary on the political extremes, but don’t expect to understand where the real problems are. Although perhaps understanding is a bourgeouis luxury.
Well my dear Brutus, I suppose this might hit home if you actually knew what al-Jazeera is like, but since this is a simple side swipe based on ignorance, welll, fraid it doesn’t hold much water with me.
Sam Stone gives his impression based on the English language Arab press.
Collounsbury gives his, and intermixes it as usual with insults based on the assumption that nobody has the right to express any opinion before being told what to think by our resident expert.
Assholery != expertise.
Two opinions, based on anecdotal evidence. Or rather, one based on anecdotal evidence, and the other an argument from authority. Which authority cannot seem to react calmly to any opinion differing from his own.
Well, given I read that as well, I am stating right here and clearly, I fail to see how one could derive Sam’s impression from a reading of the English lang. Arabic press. I repeat: I fail to see how one could derive such from reading the English lang. Arabic press – in the region.
Further Sam advances a number of opinions that go well beyond what one could derive from such.
I will point to Istara and Akhouya Gozu on the matter not being just my read of the situation.
Think whatever one wants. However if one wants to pretend to give a characterization of something, one should have some real basis for doing so. Sam can come up with any analysis he wants off of the facts, however creating facts ad hoc doesn’t add much, now does it? There are enough bloody distortions flouting around without pretending American Neo Con wishful thinking is factual.
You know, as soon as I read Sam’s post I thought - gee, wonder when Collounsbury is going to show up… Dude, I know you’re angry, but yes, please watch the language. I often dislike what you say, frequently find you irritating, but I think your viewpoint is valuable and, since I can’t read Arabic, you’re probably my best source of info on what the Arabic media are saying. (If you know of a good source for someone who reads English and French, please direct me - I don’t trust the US media on the Middle East at all)
Anyhow – when the Iraq invasion started I was pretty upset. I wasn’t convinced we were justified, and I wasn’t convinced the end result would be to anyone’s benefit. And, of course, whether I supported it or not, agreed with it or not, I’d be lumped into the “Arrogant American” bucket with everyone else being hated.
I don’t have a personal attachment to any part of the Middle East or to Morroco, but even so looking at the pictures of shattered homes and the ruins of lives was painful. Maybe there are hawks out there regarding these people as cardboard cut outs but I know they’re real people who are really suffering.
It’s the economy, not just the bloodshed. That’s why tourists were killed in Bali, too - to cripple the economy.
My personal take on this (and I’m sure if I get anything wrong a certain someone will correct me) is that perpetrators of these crimes want a number of objectives:
End the mixing of Muslim and non-Muslim. This keeps the Muslim element “pure” by not exposing them to ideas outside the ideas espoused by whoever is in power, or wants to be in power. Also, when people from different groups interact with each other they will often form friendships, find the other group has much in common with them, and otherwise develop some degree or other of understanding and tolerance. This, of course, must not be allowed by a certain fanatic element that wants to demonize the Other.
Cripple the economy of their enemy. As has been pointed out, a major reason for US military dominance is technology, a type of technology that requires a strong economy to maintain or, if you’re not the US, to buy for your defense. A country with no money is defenseless in this world
Thus - in the US, NYC was a target not becuase of the military importance, but because of the economic importance. The destruction of the WTC did negatively impact our economy, as has the impact on aviation.
In Saudi Arabia, enclaves of “westerners” were attacked, in part because these follks help keep the Saudi economy humming along and provide skills and expertise. The Saudis living in those enclaves? Kill them because they are willingly mixing with the enemy, contaminated, and have developed unacceptable tolerance for the Other. This also will make other Saudis think twice before living with or even interacting with westerners.
In Morocco - attack the tourists, and attack those who interact with and profit from the tourists. This does bad things to the Moroccan economy as well.
Destruction as a demonstration of power. This is the same impulse that leads one six year old to knock over the tower of blocks built by another six year old. On a certain level terrorists are bullies. Heavily armed, violence-prone, homicidal bullies. The operating philosophy being “if you don’t agree with me I will hurt you until you give in”.
Genocide. From what I’ve gathered from the rhetoric coming from these groups, while they wish to bring the muslim world over to their way of thinking, they want to eliminate certain other groups. As in wipe from the face of the earth. This is so important that if a few muslims get caught in the crossfire that’s acceptable collateral damage.
I think the fanatical types will happily kill any muslim that doesn’t meet their standards of conduct and belief. Look at the Taliban controlled Afganistan
You’re right, that doesn’t make sense. Perhaps the confusion arises because we don’t precisely understand their motives or goals?
Regarding the rationale, you have hit upon them rather precisely. al-Hayat reports today that Moroccan authorities are pointing to a group called at-Takfiir wal-Hijra, originally of Egyptian origin and a sub-set or group of al-Qaeda. If I am not mistaken, az-Zuwahiri’s folks.
Their overall ideology holds that anyone not meeting their standards may be ‘excommunicated’ or rather declared apostate. Takfiir. Good Muslims are to withdraw from contact. Those that don’t are also apostate.
A singularly compelling logic, is it not? These same bastards carried out the slaughter of a Sufi group back in Dec 2000 in Sudan (as I recall north of Khartoum). Machined gunned people at prayer.
Insofar as tourism is “polluting” they’re quite happy to see if go to hell.
Well Collounsbury, thank you for the delightfully insipid, rambling, and almost embarrassingly biased posts in this thread. So far all you’ve proven is that you are a borderline Arab fanatic frothing at the mouth. You are stating you are an expert on this subject? I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I read this. Yeah I’m sure world leaders are consulting you on all matters concerning Arab affairs. Oh wait, you’re not. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: There are not enough rolleyes for this one. I’m surprised to see the Arab propaganda is actually fooling someone, because it’s sure as hell not fooling anyone on this side of the hemisphere. But if you want to continue on this ridiculous slant of yours, go right ahead. I could always use another good laugh.
Sincerely,
The Presumably Now Evil American Infidel
(Cause hey, America is evil and stating otherwise means you are a “warmonger”)
