I like Americans too, gum, and that is why I’m distressed to see this country led into such a deep pit by incompetents (GW), ideologues (Rummy and Wolfie), and those out to feather the nests of themselves and themselves (Cheney).
Of course, in my liking for Americans I have to except those dolts who think Arnold S. would be a suitable governor for 34 million Californians.
To add to your point its not even 100, more like 40 to 60 years, Tunisia 1956, Syria 1946, Algeria 1962 to use some examples.
Well said, Diogenes! Manifest Destiny has gone through a series of name changes throughout our country’s history. Today it manifest itself as “Freedom loving Americans”. However, the fundemental tenets of the philosophy are remarkably consistent over time.
You need medication…and fast!! There may still be time for a medical intervention at this level of psycosis, but not much time.
The US enjoys relative freedom and justice due to many factors and has kept that way quite sometime. Freedom and a more Just society are dam hard to get... americans think its the "normal" thing. Most countries even democratic ones still suffer way more corruption and restrictions than the US. Thou with post 9/11 these "liberties" have been somewhat reduced.
Still having freedom at home hasn't been followed by sponsoring freedom abroad. The US has consistently supported all sorts of dictators and right wing coups in order to control and counter communism. For US companies good nice rigid govts make for better business... so this talk of leader of the "free world" is bullshit.Eolbo,
Yes, you’re right…I got a bit carried away. I was thinking more along the lines of what happened after WWI with the break-up of the Ottoman Empire and the various British/French mandates created from it. So I rounded down the time frame in my head from around the early 1900’s to today.
Plus, I’m not even including the time frame in the mid to late 1800’s with the French and then British involvement in the Suez Canal through Egypt. Nor the French colonial period of Morocco, Tunisia, and Algeria.
So after you kill all terrorists… which by some miracle you managed to find them all… NOT A SINGLE new kid will join the terrorists ? You think you will scare suicidal terrorists or newcomers by killing a lot of them ? Your just taking down individuals… not the system.
Your kind of mentality of fighting “regimes that support terrorism” is bound to fail. Terrorism is only ocassionaly state sponsored. What happens to those private sources ? How much does it cost to pick up an AK-47 and shoot an american invader ? At some point WHO THE FUCK WILL YOU attack ? They are called terrorists and not an army because they dont wear a uniform.
So the point is not to only KILL terrorists... its to STOP young, poor and hopeless young kids from joining the terrorists. Hearts and Minds... not bullets and bombs. It's hard to know that the US spends such a stupid amount of dollars in weapons and even then it won't stop some ragtag terrorist from killing americans... but that is the reality. Giving them more reason to hate isnt the way.
If the USA were invaded and the regular army shot to pieces... wouldnt loads of americans step forward to defend their country ? After these "militiamen" get killed will other americans stay cowered and scared ? Probably not. Yet should arabs get the same ideas its called stuborness and ignorance...Let’s do a little math here:
It took 2 wars, almost 2 years, over 500 U.S. military casualties, uncounted civilian casualties, and well over $100 billion (that’s with a “B”) to kill two alleged “terrorist leaders” and some of their local henchmen. We do NOT know exactly where all the “terrorist” are and how many are still out there. We know for a fact that the hunt for them continues to kill innocent bystanders. It is logical to project these “colateral” casualties will create new terrorist and galvanize the old ones.
Let’s review:
For every terrorist we eventually find and kill, we create numerous younger terrorist to replace them.
The Question:
How many more wars over how many lifetimes at what human cost do you estimate it will take to 'kill all of them"?
I think you are taking manhattan’s writing a lot more seriously than it deserves. If that is really his considered opinion then argument will avail nothing.
I think the one thing that is a sidebar to this debate, but isn’t reflected in the poll in the OP, is that it’s not just Muslim countries where the U.S.'s image has worsened. It may not matter what those countries think about the U.S., but it does matter what most of Europe thinks. At the very least, Europeans do consume U.S. goods and a good image there is beneficial to the U.S. economy.
Hail Ants
Boy, here’s some of Bush’s “with us or against us” mentality manifesting itself.
No, no I don’t think it’s quite that easy. No one said they have to live like anyone else. Some want to live differentlyand those that do usually leave those countires. But some don’t and they have every right to live as they wish, so long as they don’t cause harm to anyone outside their borders.
But I have a question for all those really patriotic Americans on the right. I hear about the American left still putting on peace vigils and rallies in favor of peace. Yet, I don’t see any similar movements from the right to curtail dealings with the Middle East. Wouldn’t it stand to reason, that these folks who are on record as hating Americans (the poll from the OP serves at least as some evidence of this), should not get the benefit of American business? If the citizens Jordan have a 99% unfavorable view of America, why wouldn’t the American right stand up and oppose the recently passed free trade agreement?
Why is there no active boycott in America of Middle Eastern goods in ALL its forms? You certainly had no problem doing as such towards the French. And they weren’t advocating your death, or holding Osama in a favourable way.
Exactly what was the ‘situation’ that got us attacked on 9/11? Being a free, prosperous, humanitarian country that values life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness more than what it says in the Koran? The Twin Towers somehow deserved to be destroyed as payback for all the trouble in the world that’s caused by the US?
This is firmly believed by a lot of people around the world, but not because of any actions by the US, but because of ignorance. And at some point America has to balance trying to educate the un-educatable with protecting its citizens from mass homicide.
9/11 was a completely unprovoked act of unspeakable violence against a totally undefended, civilian target. It was a crime. A crime of mass murder not for military or economic gain, but strictly out of hatred. Hatred for our culture, our wealth, our values and our religion.
The US is not going to change anything about ourselves because that’s not where the problem lies. This was done to us. Saying we share the blame in any way is like blaming the Holocaust on the Jews, i.e. the had a different religion, a different culture, they controlled all the money, our bible says they’re evil etc. etc. etc.
As I said before, pure unadulterated liberal guilt.
Well said **Hail Ants **
I’m relieved to see some pride coming back.
And Nietzsche
I don’t know from which part of Europe you are [by your handle, I’d say Germany], but speak for yourself, will you?
*Originally posted by 2sense *
**
[/QUOTE]
**We could point out that people have reasons to dislike America. **
So what ? There was no valid reason or justification for 9-11. If these people choose to act out on their alleged reasons , they will find themselves six feet under.
**We could point out that a good deal of this thread, if one were to bother to actually read and attempt to understand it, is a discussion some of those reasons. **
Waste of time. The reasons of terrorists and their supporters are invalid, and they have nothing to say of worth, that we need to listen to.
We could point out that many of the terrorists are dedicated enough to die in an attempt to kill us so it doesn’t matter that we have more guns.
Yes, which is why I am in the “kill 'em all” camp. You don’t reason with terrorists, you kill them/detain them, whatever.
**We could ask Daisey Cutter if she is willing to match that commitment in our defense. **
What do you mean ? Join the army or something ? I am a “He” by the way, and I believe my age exceeds the requirements for joining up. This is a silly question, usually asked by naive, childish people. Well now that I’ve answered it, what will you do ? Attend some “peace” march or something ? Besides causing a bit of vandalism, those marches are a waste of time, with a high degree of scum factor involved.
What we can’t do, unfortunately, is use reason to convince an unreasonable person.
Yes, you are finally starting to understand. Terrorists = unreasonable - - - Solution = We kill 'em
If she wants to stick her head in the sand and ignore all the rational arguments against her position then there is nothing we can do about it. She can go on being irrational right up until the carbomb takes her life or limbs or loved ones. Because you can try to hide from reality but it tends to find you and bite you in the ass.
If somebody is likely to end up dead, it will be because of the naive, impotentness displayed by cowardless people on your side.
To add to your point even more, it wasn’t the US who colonized them. Maybe the US should apologize to NA and the Levant for what France did to them.
gum:
Perhaps it’s you who should be “speaking for yourself.” Try doing a little research. Your ass kissing mentality is quite solidly in the minority in Europe.
>> What we can’t do, unfortunately, is use reason to convince an unreasonable person.
That is very true. But as the costs of the occupation mount, as the body bag count increase, as the economy continues to suffer and as the USA continues to not get help from most of the world. . . those Americans who are unreasonable might begin to come to their senses.
BTW, if the purpose is killing terrorists, why did the USA not invade the Palestinian territory where there are so many of them? The reasoning the Saddam helped them is so ludicrous that not even the USA has used that argument to defend the invasion of Iraq. that tells you how stupid it is. If Colin Powel goes to the UN and tells them that the USA is going to invade Iraq because Saddam Hussein was giving money to the widows of the suicide bombers, the laughter in the UN would have lasted for days. And it’s not lke this administration has been shy about using lies and really stupid arguments. The fact that they did not use this one tells you just how stupid it is. It is so stupid not even the US government would use it.
ANyone here who thinks there is no reason to try to understand why the world is so disgusted with America should read Fareed Zakaria; he explains it so much more articulately than I could ever hope to do. My stupid IE address bar is still MIA, so I can’t copy & paste a link directly, but please, please, please read on his web site:
Go to the Archives, and read anything there, but especially “Why They Hate Us.” (Published 10/15/01.)
I love America, and the whole reason I ended up being born here is that my ancestors (and not so far back, either; 2 of my 4 grandparents are non-U.S.-born, and all of my great-grandparents were) were fleeing persecution.
But even if I think that America is a great country, that doesn’t mean that we have nothing to learn from the rest of the world, or that we should be blind to their suffering simply because we think we can afford to be. Such blind arrogance will come back to bite America in the ass; in fact, it already has.
It may be a bumper sticker slogan, and some of you may dismiss it as hopeless idealism, but I strongly believe it anyway: if you want peace, work for justice.
America’s reputation in Europe really is shot to shit. Tony Blair looks very unlikely to hang on to power, largely because of his support for the Iraq war.
More importantly, I think that the people who believe that they are going to “kill them all” are missing the point about terrorism. Coming from Belfast, I can tell you that the only way to end terrorism, or even to moderate it, is through dialogue, discussion and understanding. That’s why Hume and Trimble got the Nobel peace prize rather than Paisley or McGuinness. Big and tough as America is, it doesn’t take much to make a bomb or procure a gun; if anything good comes out of the current situation in Iraq, perhaps it will be that the meatheaded brigade will realise that people need to have their say, and to be listened to.
Never happen. The solution for what you call the “meatheaded brigade” is for our electorate to throw them out. And it seems to be taking a long time for many to realize that this “emperor” has no clothes now and never had any.
I was disappointed, but not too surprised, that the events of 11 September converted GW to a hero in a matter of minutes. I’m not all that confident that the awakening will come in time for the next presidential electrion. I’ve never like the two-term limit much, but it is looking better all the time, at least on a one-time basis.
Eva Luna,
Thanks for the link - Zakaria’s new book has been sitting on my shelf for the past couple of months. Looks like I need to start reading it. And his articles appear to be worth the read as well.