I don’t know exactly how to take this. Its pretty verbally abusive and disrespectful on the one hand, but on the other, I have had numerous conversations with military personnel that have served in Iraq and generally to a man have described the efforts of the Iraqi police and other security forces as abysmal at best.
Maybe they needed a stern talking to…maybe along with just about everything else we did in the Iraq war that we went about the wrong way we are doing so here.
I dunno. You?
They never applied for this “job” - we forced it on them. Of course they don’t give a shit about it. We come in there and lecture them about how they’re not loyal enough to their own country? The concept of patriotism that we have in America does not apply to them. Iraq is a collection of tribes.
Two comments on the video said it better than I could:
"Love to see how long this brave asshole would last living 24 hours a day on the streets of Iraq armed with a beret, no body armour, no backup, no air support, no instant medical evacuation, family living unprotected.
Love to see him stripped down to his skivvies, going one on one with somebody who’s had to survive as many wars, slums, terrorism, Saddam, etc,. as the typical Iraqi. Americans are going home, Iraqi’s stay.
Loyal to WHAT Iraq? The Sunni one, the Shiite one, the Kurd one. The American Puppet one. Iraq is a hodge podge put together by the British. Iraq is a fiction."
And beneath it:
“What this gungho soldier doesn’t understand is that “Iraq” is an empty abstraction for most of those people and certainly not something anyone would want to die for.”
One on one? My money is on the Marine.
Carrying the same gear as the Iraqi police? My money is on the Marine (if I can drop him off in a city where he does not stand out due to his race - just to keep it equal).
His rant is accurate, but should not have been delivered - especially through an interpreter.
He is over there training guys that he KNOWS are taking his training and using it against him. He can’t do shit about that, so he unloads on his audience. I don’t envy him at all - his mission sucks.
In the same way, he does NOT understand the tribalism. The first thing the Marines beat OUT of you is any residual tribalism that you bring to Boot. You WILL back your fellow Marines, you WILL die for your country (if you can’t make the other guy die for his), YOU will go out and fight with whatever gear you are issued.
I don’t think that’s true at all, unless you are implying that this “job” suddenly became necessary due to our lack of foresight regarding the inter-factional religious conflicts that would arise when we foolishly created a power vacuum by removing Saddam Hussein without a quick and viable alternative in place.
I do believe that many Iraqis are in fact patriotic to their country, despite their specific religious affiliation.
That’s basically what I was implying. I do not think that Iraqis have much of a concept of patriotism to a national identity. The country of Iraq was created arbitrarily by colonial powers. You have this same situation in Africa where there is constant civil war because the national divisions don’t mean anything; all that matters is what tribe you’re from.
Well, I am just glad you’re back. Where’s all the MPSIMS posts about 15th century armor? Where have all the flowers gone? Gone to graveyards, every one?
Doesn’t the rest of this paragraph suggest that Mariens have tribalism beaten into them?
Yes it does, and the Marines are definitely a tribe, or fraternity of fighting men who all share a common bond. Now imagine someone coming into America, deposing the government, organizing the Marines into a police unit, and lecturing them that they need to view themselves not as Marines but as defenders of this new, hastily-formed makeshift government that was just set up.
That’s basically what it is for these Iraqis when we tell them they need to put aside their loyalty to this militia or that militia or this sect or tribe or that one, and “be loyal to Iraq.” The concept of “Iraq” is not meaningful to them.
I’m not saying that the points in the speech in the video are all wrong, just that this tactic of trying to appeal to the Iraqi’s “patriotism” or “loyalty to Iraq” is totally the wrong approach.
I hope no Marines are reading your question. Criticize their ethos, training, or traditions and they have a way of making you sorry you ever opened your yap.
I don’t see Rhythmdvl’s observation as a criticism; he’s simply stating, in different words, “once a Marine, always a Marine”. Being a Marine becomes what and who you are at your core-most, right? Some people, you ask them “what are you?” and they say “I’m American”; some, you ask them “what are you?” and depending on what country they’re in, they answer “I’m Polish” or “I’m American”; some answer “I’m an engineer”. A Marine may answer “I’m a Marine” 30 years after handing in his government-issue gun.
Yeah, there’s no such thing as an ex-Marine, apparently.
Rifle, you maggot - DROP AND GIVE ME TWENTY!
Regards,
Shodan
Nava’s right, the point of my post was to note that Algher’s statement was inherently contradictory. That to say that there is no tribalism in the Marines because they have the concept of being a Marine and loyal to the Marines blah blah blah beaten into them is nonsensical. If pointing out that the term “jar head” has a provenance is criticizing them to the point of offense, well then they can bite my shiny metal ass.
In fact, the concept that some yahoo would be compelled to make someone “sorry” for criticizing their ethos, training or traditions only furthers the notion that it’s tribalism in the extreme. Criticism is inherent to the fabric of the nation. Silencing it is about as unAmerican as shitting on the flag. Your reaction kind of undercuts a sense of patriotism, duty, or whatever shtick gets people to join up.
It is not nonsensical, and I agree that the Marines are a Tribe in the sense of this discussion - and that is an excellent point. The Iraqi police have not been through Boot Camp (REAL Boot Camp) together, they have not been formed into a cohesive unit. The Marine is trying to get semi-trained cops to think like Marines, and it is not working. The cops go home each night during training, erasing some of the bonding that was occurring during the day.
The Marine’s mistake was thinking that he was dealing with the equivalent of a bunch of new Marines fresh out of Boot, or even Marines still in Boot. He is stuck with their tribes, they don’t have a higher purpose to necessarily aspire to, and they have not been forced into being a single unit through the hell that is Boot Camp.
I see. I wasn’t disagreeing with your overall point, just that section.
But then there’s the key term “residual.” If I understand you correctly now, you weren’t saying that Marines have tribalism in general excised, but all non-Marine tribalism. And that (among other mistakes), he is berating a group of ostensible civilians for not having the same state of mind or singularity of purpose as he does. Further, while he is hyper-focused on a carefully packaged set of ideals and norms, parallel concepts don’t exist in Iraq. Furthermore, he is compounding his mistake by not recognizing the relative legitimacy (and lack thereof) of the recruits preexisting tribal loyalties. Not only in the literal sense (that the region has tribalism as a large part of its culture) but in the informal sense as well.
Am I closer?
Twenty? Pfft. Which arm?
Actually I’m pretty sure the men being addressed did apply for the job. They were not drafted into the Iraqi Security forces. They signed up for it.
Nitpicking. They probably don’t care about the job, and are either just doing something they find distasteful so they can eat, or are trying to get some military training and weapons they can take back to their faction. That’s not much like the Marines. And the job itself was forced on them since it wouldn’t exist if Iraq didn’t exist, and Iraq was forced on them.
I’m inclined to think that he has a (valuable) Marine mentality - “Why the fuck are we getting shot at while you pussyfoot around protecting your own country” kind of thing. I, for one, agree with the message; I also think it wasn’t the most effective delivery.
On the other hand, you don’t make warfighters by giving them handjobs and telling them everything is going to be okay… you yell, you intimidate, in short you simulate verbally what the actual fight will entail. So… perhaps it wasn’t the best delivery of the messge, but it got the point across.
And, to the other point - the Iraqi police are a paid volunteer force. Just like our police and military organizations.