Actually, the military goes for that in some ways too. Take, for example, the Air Force uniform. Our new battlefield uniform requires no ironing, no starching, no boot shining, and does not include unit patches.
Mind you, it’s frigging ridiculous we were ever ironing our battlefield fatigues to begin with, and the boot shining thing… eh, it looks good in garrison. I’m still pissed that they took away unit patches and baseball caps in the uniform. One of my favorite military geekery topics is military heradlry (a lot of the weird stuff you see in military unit patches in the US military has its own meaning, as is probably the case for IDF unit insignia)
I have a question, I take it that in the IDF, you don’t become an officer unless you have some reasonably considerable amount of experience in the military - what we in the Air Force refer to as being “Prior Service”. In the US Military, it’s possible to go directly into the military with a commission with little more than a few months of military training and a bachelor’s degree (indeed, the US Military operates a number of schools with the express purpose of getting you that degree so you can be an officer). This probably has different effects on what sort of officers the training programs churn out.
Actually, I have to go back on what I just said, it’s pretty much normal for officers to be produced this way. It’s possible but generally rarer for enlisted men and Non Commission Officers (Sergeants and Petty Officers) to earn their own commissions. Typically if you stay enlisted, but continue to get promoted, the top rank you achieve is E-9 (in the Air Force, we call them Chief Master Sergeants, or just Chiefs, the other branches have their own names for the rank).
Typically, if the Chief says something, everybody will pause and listen. Everywhere I’ve been, the Chief has been a person who received considerable respect due to both his rank and considerable experience, and any person, officers included, who thought they knew better than him were typically fools. Even the officers, who technically outrank the Chief, will either listen to him (younger officers) or at least consider his advice (older officers with their own base of experience).
For your enjoyment: A very partial listof IDF shoulder tags (not patches - they hang from the shoulder-straps in A uniforms). The IDF has literally hundreds of them - sometimes for units as small as companies.
My current unit tag. I’ve been known to refer to us as the “Venetian Brigade”, although I haven’t yet found anyone who knew what I was talking about.
With a few exceptions, all IDF officers are promoted from the ranks of the NCOs. Every unit has its own program, but all combat units work generally work like this: a company finishes its basic and advanced training, and stars serving in the field. After a few months, the staff picks out some of the more capable men and sends them off to Squad Leaders School (or Tank Commander School or whatever). After graduation they return to their brigade and serve as NCOs. After a certain amount of time as commanders, their officers will approach the ones displaying the best leadership skills and offer to send them to Officer’s Course. If they accept, they’re sent to six months or so of officer’s training, graduating as 1st Lieutenants. The whole process from enlistment to commission generally takes between 2 and 3 years.
Non-combat troops can advance in a similar manner, or through “designated officer” programs, in which they are fast-tracked to some professional commission; even in these cases, if they drop out along the way they have to continue serving at whatever rank they reached. College degrees have no bearing on a soldier’s rank, although I believe you need a B.A. to make Lieutenant Colonel, and an M.A. for Brigadier General; officers generally see this as a perk, as the military will be paying for their degree.
One interesting side effect of this all is that officers from different branches have very little contact with each other over the course of their training; as a result, an infantry officer, for instance, will have more in common with an infantry NCO or even an infantry grunt, than he will with an intelligence officer. Officers are very much considered to be “upgraded” enlisted, and not a separate breed.
The IDF does indeed have its equivalent of Warrant Officers, known as Nagadim. Unlike in other militaries, however, these career NCOs in most cases do not act as combat troops, instead serving in “professional” positions such as mechanics, technicians, cooks etc - basically, any position in which you need a trained professional who isn’t necessarily a leader. *Nagadim *are definitely respected, but only in their narrow field of expertise.
Hmm. At the Captain’s Masts that I have attended, the… err… guest of honor… did not salute. He stood at attention. When the C.O. said “at ease”, the MAA escort orders the… guest of honor… to uncover.
On the contrary, my experience agrees with that of Monty’s. The “guest of honor” arrives covered, comes to attention facing the CO, salutes, and remains at attention until told to stand at ease and to remove his cover. Because the CO is not covered, he does not return the salute.
It is actually in substance (if not form) quite similar to the old British and commonwealth system. Officers werr brought in to the regiments but they were not given any real responsibility for a couple of years, while they learnt soldiering.
The system is incidentally highly admirable, though I wonder if it does not place too much responsibility of junior officers, the lack of NCO’s to share the burden must tell at times.
Well, according to the cite by mlees, I would say that it is an explicit requirement. The statements “Salutes will be exchanged between officers … and enlisted personnel,” and “The junior person shall salute first”, indicate that it is a two person process, and both salutes are required. But it is not worded as directly as the Navy reg.
Mine agrees with mlees’. USMC, late 80’s early 90’s, guests of honor were uncovered (no hat) as it was indoors, and definitely not under arms, ergo no salute. Locked up and rock solid attention, and the stiffest “at-ease” you are ever likely to see, but no saluting indoors. Army and Navy may have different rules.
I’m reminded of the scene from The Caine Mutiny–the book, not the movie–where Willie is introduced to Captain De Vries. To paraphrase, the good Captain was as uncovered as it is possible for a man to be, or stark naked. The rich young WASP ensign is, to say the least, disconcerted.
We’ve talked about it before; one of the military Dopers Jurph, IIRC, said that at recreational events for both enlisted and commissioned people, it was common for the highest ranking officer present to declare the event “no cover”, at which point saluting was no longer mandatory.
I have a related question: If I understand correctly, an enlisted person usually has to address an officer simply as sir or maam. At some point, though, for example when the two have been working in the same unit for a while, is the enlisted person allowed to address the officer by their rank and name, like “Lieutenant Keefer”? Similarly, what are the rules about lower officers addressing higher-up ones?
There’s nothing wrong with rank and last name. It happens all the time, especially in areas where the junior needs to get the attention of a specific senior amongst other seniors. This applies to all ranks, although I rarely see it among officers, for whatever reason. And I’d certainly never address my commanding officer that way.
We (Navy) don’t salute indoors, either. The AF does, all the time–it makes joint awards ceremonies awkward. One guy will salute after shaking hands with the CO, the next guy won’t. It’s a bit weird.
Indeed, sometimes we get less formal than rank-and-name when addressing officers. We go wild every once in a while and use ONLY their rank!
IIRC, proper address of a superior is either “Sir/Ma’am”, their rank and name, just their rank, or one of a few accepted shortenings of their rank (ie: Staff Sergeant or Tech Sergeant can both be addressed as Sergeant. Master and Senior Master Sergeant are typically called “Master Sergeant” in conversation, although in CE I’ve noticed SMSgts casually referred to as “Senior”. Chief Master Sergeants can be addressed as “Chief”). Also, Lieutenants can be called “L-T” in casual situations.
Well, not all the time. The only times I can think of where we salute indoors would be when reporting to an officer (typically in his office), when receiving an award (Shake, Take, and Salute, as they teach us), and memorial services for fallen servicemembers (saluting the folded Stars and Stripes, this one typically a very slow, solemn salute).
And it’s a lot of fun seeing any kind of joint ceremony with different branches, especially formations with guide-on bearers. As far as I can tell, no two branches do the same things with their guide-ons.
And then you can be unfortunate enough to be standing in formation next to the unfortunate officer cadet who answered a Royal Corps of Signals Staff Sgt with a friendly “yeah, Sarge” :smack: :eek:
That was 35 years ago and I still have not found out what all the words meant*
*Well, in practice the words apparently meant “you, you, you and you – go fill a pack with rocks and start running round the camp until I get tired of watching you”.
First off, you can’t just address a superior as sir or ma’am. What if there is more than one officer present and you need to address a specific person?
Next, in the U.S. Navy, junior officers (O-1 through O-4), are traditionally addressed as “Mr. [Last Name]” by superiors and subordinates alike. This practice is still done today, but tends to phase out by the time the officer makes Lieutenant (O-3). I have also not heard the equivalent term used much for female officers; people tend to use their ranks instead.
[This can be seen with the film and play Mister Roberts. Roberts is a Lieutenant (junior grade).]
I was addressed this way the whole time I was an Ensign (O-1) and a LTJG (O-2). When I was promoted to Lieutenant (O-3), I was usually addressed as “Lieutenant [Last Name],” but “Mr. [Last Name]” would not have been incorrect.
On submarines, the Commanding Officer (CO), Executive Officer (XO), and the four department heads all have job titles. They are all usually addressed by everyone (officer and enlisted) by these titles. The CO is usually addressed as “Captain” (regardless of his actual rank). The XO is referred to as “XO.” The Department heads are addressed as follows:
Engineering Officer: ENG (pronounced “enj”)
Navigator: NAV
Weapons Officer: WEPS
Supply Officer: Chop
Understandable, but chaplains are non-combatants. They are not armed, and are there to serve the spiritual needs of the soldiers. They are generally treated differently (more gently). Though I imagine with our current Muslim enemies, this is no longer the case.
Also, the Wehrmacht should not be confused with the Nazi Wafen-SS. The Wehrmacht, or regular German army, participated directly far less than the SS in the Holocaust. The one’s on the Russian front in particular.
Salutes are reserved for officers. Non-coms merit deference, and even coming to attention when called, but not salutes.*
Only exception is in basic training and such when officers are in short supply and the military is early in establishing the expectation and habit of salutes. Then they will sometimes use batons to designate the drill instructors, and require the cadets to salute anyone with a baton. That gets the cadets trained to look and respond accordingly.
*People with actual military experience may wish to chime in.
No, enlisted do not exchange salutes with each other based on rank.
There may be some special duty (like some kind of honor guard) where salutes are exchanged during watch reliefs (shift change). But those salutes are rendered based on watch stander duty (and standing orders), not rank.
We have a family friend whho’s son is a Marine. She was so glad that her son was learning how to operate the radio. She was glad because he would not be a ground pounder. We did not have the heart to tell her.:smack:
FWIW from your use of the phrase I was able to imagine a possibility of what it would be even before seeing it. But then again I hold a lot of otherwise useless info in my head .
BTW it has been touched upon elsewhere but it is not uncommon for a commander to designate areas in the post as exempted from cover/salute requirements (e.g. during my time at the Health Sciences Academy at Ft. Sam Houston, where you’d have hundreds of enlisted and officers moving between classrooms in the school in between class periods and it would get unwieldy)
:smack: :eek:
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