I guess being correct looks like oversimplification to someone who is overgeneralizing to such a degree that they are overtly and flatly incorrect.
It was a sewn/stitched ACU patch where the rank insignia typically goes, about 3/4 of the way up on the front of his field jacket. If I understand you correctly, the Christian chaplains have those made up on their own? Consider my ignorance fought. I am just surprised that the Military allows non issued patches to be applied to one’s uniform.
Everyone knows that Christianity is not the official religion of the US Military, except it seems, those that we are fighting. Is your issue with the verse code the fact you are carrying a scope so marked and you are personally offended, or that the verse would somehow offend those who you are either fighting against or those who we are tying to convince that we are the good guys?
If it’s the former, I understand and agree completely. If it is the later, I guess I would ask which is more offensive, that Chaplain walking around with the locals shouting JESUS via the patch his jacket or cap, or the letters and numbers marked on a scope?
But your sarcasm requires the premise that there was some functional marking that was unintentional as a religious message but was interpreted that way by people. That’s not the case. This is deliberate. This isn’t really any different substantially from putting “Pray To Jesus” on the item, except it’s sneakier.
I’m not sure that’s true. Based on some news stories and some other threads on the board, I’m not sure a lot of the Christians inside the US military, even in important high ranking positions, are aware that the US Army is not officially the Christian Army.
Non-Christians have been harassed and when reported sometimes goes unanswered. The former Commander in Chief openly said that he was essentially on a mission from (the Christian) God regarding Iraq.
By no means is it totally clear cut that the US army is not at all a religiously driven institution, and stuff like this helps substantiate the position of those who want it to be.
What about the non-Christians in our army?
That’s actually an interesting question. How much prosetylzing work do chaplains do? I have no idea.
But for me, barking up this tree only convinces me that it’s wrong to have Chaplains, rather than that it’s right to put Christian messages on our weapons.
And that is really the issue I am raising. Why all the fuss over JN8:16 or whatever that is molded on a scope as compared to the lack of same regarding the practice of Chaplains in combat areas openly wearing religious garb. I understand clearly that one, the Chaplain, has a choice and the other, the soldier doesn’t.
You are not understanding it correctly at all.
You stated that the Army issues crosses to the Chaplain Corps. As if all Chaplains are issued crosses. This is not correct. Similarly, all Chaplains are not issued crescent moon patches. So you can’t scream “The Army issued the Chaplain Corps crescent moon insignias! They are trying to convert everyone to Islam”
Muslim Chaplains get issued their Islamic insignia and prayer mats. Catholic Chaplains get issued their incense burners and crosses.
Go back and reread my posts to see what my issues are.
Was he shouting anything at all? He is a religious and spiritual leader in the Military. That’s his job. I have no problem with our religious leaders meeting with theirs. And when such meetings occur, I have no issue with those leaders refusing to hide what or who they are.
Chaplains do not convert people. They provide many religious, spiritual, and psychiatrical services to the military. Their purpose is not to convince you of their beliefs or convert you. Chaplains have no problem with my lack of belief, and I have no problem with them believing.
Now if you can’t seperate a military having Chaplains of all faiths and denominations providing the members of that military with whatever ceremonial necessities they feel they need, from a military that issues everyone equipment which declares Christ the Lord, then I don’t know any other way to explain it to you.
If the Chaplain were out there trying to preach and convert like some missionary, then there would be issues. Simply wearing insignia specific to his (and not the Army’s) beliefs is not an issue. A Christian Chaplain sitting down and openly discusses the future with an Imam is a great thing. It’s a positive step in the right direction.
Unilaterally declaring that all US Soldiers are Christians is bad. Putting that nonsense on our rifle scopes is ridiculous and could be hurtful to our efforts in the future. Not to mention the slap in the face it sends to all Muslim, Jewish and other nonChristian American servicemen and women.
Also, it is important to note that all military Chaplains are crossed trained in the rituals and ceremonies of other religions and denominations. Just thought I throw that out there.
One, the Chaplain’s insignia, has a purpose, and the other does not. One is for identification, the other is for proselytizing. One identifies the bearer as a non-combatant, the other identifies its manufacturer as short sighted asshole.
I said no such thing. What I said was that there was a crucifix patch where a rank insignia would normally go. I even said where it was located on his jacket, in the same spot that the CO’s rank was located. It appeared to be an issued ACU type patch. Are you saying that the military does not issue those patches and instead the chaplain had it made for him instead? Fine. Don’t try to state that said something that I did not.
Fuck it, it is obvious I’m getting my point across…
Yes you did.
[Bolding Mine]
The Army does not issue those to the entire Chaplain Corps. It would only be something issued to Christian Chaplains. And if you really do mean “crucifix” and not just “cross”, then it would be something only given to Catholic Chaplains. Again, not the “Chaplain Corps”. There is a difference between accepting all religions, and declaring only one. Chaplains are free to wear the symbology of their particular beliefs. They are not required to all be Christian or all wear crucifixes.
It is not “equally offensive” as you claim, because one involves the ENTIRE FUCKING ARMY being issued Jesus symbology, versus a Christian Chaplain being issued a Christian Insignia. How dense are you?
And I would really like to see a picture. I’ve never seen an actual “crucifix” insignia. Only a cross.
What you also said was that the Army issues the Chaplain Corps these pataches. It’s not a Branch-wide patch.
See above.
Nice out of context quote. You should teach a fucking class. From that same post:
You missed my point. Several earlier posts talk about the Army and how it is against their own rules to proselytize or encourage any religion. Here is a case where military members are wearing US Gov issued crucifix insignias as they are walking amongst the local Muslims trying to win hearts and minds so it seems. Yet nary a whimper from the same crowd suggesting that soldiers rip off their ACOGs so as not to offend their fellow soldiers or the people in which they are attempting to kill.
And my second line obviously using the term crucifix in regards to my previous point:
I agree, the verse however had been placed by the manufacturer, the crucifix on the other hand is made for and distributed by the military to its chaplain corps which should be equally offensive to those so offended by the JN3:16 or whatever was on the sight. Yet, on that issue, they are silent
I never mentioned a crucifix or a cross as a pendant or a piece of jewelry, only that it appeared to be an issued patch on the guy’s jacket. I then asked you, our resident military expert, if the military issued the patches and if they didn’t, you could consider my ignorance fought. That is another way of saying, I might be wrong and if so thanks for setting me straight. Typically, when someone says that around here, the person who corrected them doesn’t go on to berate the point. I guess that’s not how you roll. Got it…
Regarding the picture, sorry chief, it was on TV, a Military Channel show called God’s Soldier. Feel free to go ahead and keep on fucking belaboring the point. Like I said, I’m done with it unless you choose to misquote me again.
US Mililtary Chaplain insignia:
This shows three of the symbols from the Navy (Christian, Jewish, Muslim)
Wow, John. You must be in a really stressful environment. You seem tense.
There is a difference between “military member” and “Chaplain”.
Yes, there would be an issue with a random soldier wearing a crucifix that the Army issued him.
There is zero issue with a Christian Chaplain wearing a cross that the Army issued him. I am going to say “cross”, because I don’t believe for a second that the Chaplain was actually flaunting a crucifix on his uniform.
If all you were trying to do is ask me if the Army issues Chaplains their insignia, you have a strange way of coming out with it.
The Army issues (or at leasts “makes available for purchase”) the Chaplain insignia that is approved for wear. They do not, which is the main point here, blanketly issue EVERY CHAPLAIN a cross or crucifix.
If the Chaplain is Jewish, he gets the two little tablet things with the Star of David on it. If the Chaplain is Muslim, he gets the cresent. If he is Buddhist, he gets the Darhma Wheel…
This is the complete opposite of the Army issuing everyone the same thing which promotes one true god. By issuing all of the different insignias, the Army embraces all religions.
How you think this is on the same page as what Trijicon has done completely blows my mind.
Doesn’t matter if it is a pendant or jewelry or what. If it is actually a crucifix, and not just a cross, then it isn’t authorized for wear in the manner you describe.
However, I am going to assume it’s just a cross until proven otherwise. You do know the difference, right?
Obviously made by a non military source. You’re right I’m wrong. good enough?
You think that a few letters on an ACOG is a bigger deal than a guy in a Muslim war zone wearing a cross. Got it.
Are we finished?
No, because you still don’t get it.
I think that an Army issuing equipment to all of its soldiers or to all of its Chaplains which declares Christ the Lord is a bigger deal than a Christian Chaplain wearing his approved uniform and insignia while helping build strong bonds with the people in a Muslim war zone.
[quote]
Those are standard Chaplain insignia. Can be issued by the Army, purchased at AAFES or (as your link shows) purchased privately. However, privately purchased insignia must meet the military specifications. For example: a crucifix would not be authorized.
I think maybe JXJohns thinks a crucifix is a fancy name for a cross. (It’s not, bubbe. The crucifix is the one with Jesus’ body on it, all agonized and suffering and all.)
Not sure why I chose that word. It was obviously incorrect.
It’s because Mikey likes it.
Well, all it takes is for one brave experimenter to take a leak in the holy water font the next time he’s in church, and observe and record the results.
Jesus Christ tapdancing on a pogo stick…is there an insignia for that yet?