So when are we all going to be required to have UPC barcodes tatooed onto our foreheads in order to be able to move about freely, buy stuff, etc…?
Not being part of the lunatic fringe myself, I’m fine with the idea of a national ID. I think it only makes sense. And as has already been pointed out, the Social Security card is already a sort of one.
There’s no need a retinal scan or fingerprint scan will suffice. No alterations needed.
I understand your position, at least to some degree. Set up an “opt-in” program and I’m pretty much down wit’ dat. You get your convenience, I retain the ability to keep my information to myself.
Unfortunately, it won’t (can’t?) work that way.
I believe you may be right. Fortunately for me, WA is one of the states that has passed legislation opposing it. According to the Wikipedia article I linked to above, Oregon has such legislation pending.
Write your state congress-critters.
Yeah, it definitely seems like the best way is on the state level, from governor/legislature to Congresspeople.
Heck, if there’s some way to spin this in a way to get the airline industry riled up against it, maybe that’s worth a shot…
This is just an observation biased towards limited circumstances, but the ID mania just seems so unnecessary in my daily life. I live near a small town of 10,000, the largest town in the entire county of 27,000 and 50 miles from anything bigger. I can’t make a trip to the supermarket without bumping into someone I know personally. I don’t show IDs at either bank and the only metal detector in the entire county is at the courthouse, installed because the feds insisted. I was stopped by a cop the other day, who recognized me as an agent in the firm who sold his house and he didn’t ask for license and registration (he didn’t ticket me, either).
When I go to vote, all the poll workers know me by name and I don’t show an ID (they probably know how I’m going to vote, too!). There simply isn’t a need for something like that around here and the only outcome is a severe invasion of privacy.
I’m well aware that my circumstances are not the same across the country. I’m just saying that for some of us, this is an imposition from “the outside” that we don’t need or want to pay for and we resent it.
Will the national ID card/number result in more identity theft? I can see the con men in Nigeria, Russai, etc., slavering over new victims. I’d like to see a national ID number WITH strict legislation about WHO is responsible for debts contacted by fraud (with someone else’s ID number). Its about time that our legal industruy deals with this.
My ID expired on Christmas. I’ve whipped it out to verify my identity many times since then, only one astute TSA in Albuquerque noticed it. Basically, they don’t look at your ID as it is.
No, they didn’t. Nor did they have criminal records. Up until the point they pulled out boxcutters and started killing people they appeared to be quite law-abiding people.
I don’t see why not - they entered the country on legitimate student visas (although I think at least one overstayed his visa expriation). They were real students at real flight schools, which is, in fact, what they stated they were here to do - learn to fly - on their visa applications.
I don’t see where this “Real ID” thing improves anything. Sure, better communication between government agencies would be grand - but some of the other stuff I just dunno… Also, when the system IS cracked (and it will be) faked “real ID” will be accept by the system with no problem. This doesn’t, to my mind, solve anything.
As much as the idea tickles my “icky vibe” and “slippery slope” sensors, I’m hardpressed to think of any actual examples of real life examples where having a National ID card would cause some sort of actual problem. Is everyone just opposed to this on theory and principle, or does anyone think there will be issues at the more concrete pragmatic level?
You mean the increased administration and personal cost, more red tape, false positives, and lack of real security (or apparent security) isn’t enough?
In theory it would seem that making a national ID standard would decrease the cost, decrease red tape and have a very minor security benefit. I don’t see how it would affect false positives.
But even if that were all true, the strongest backlash seems to be on some sort of civil liberty issue. What sorts of actual specific civil liberty situations might arise?
And in both cases, looking for a real world scenario…
We’re going through this in the U.K. It’s complete bollocks and a waste of time and money. ID can be faked, created, or stolen, or terrorists can use a lily-white: one of theirs with completely clean ID.
OK, here’s a real world scenario. The technology exists to keep track of your every movements (GPS) 24/7, to record what you buy and where (credit cards), what you listen to and watch (video & audio tracking), all of your conversations with everyone (personal recording of some kind), every book, magazine and newspaper you rent, borrow or buy; every web site you visit; every YouTube you watch; every class you take, when and what grade you got; your credit scores and applications; your relatives and their habits; organizations you belong to, when, and why; how you vote; the traffic rules you violate; who you screw, blow or don’t and your medical records in detail. And that’s just for starters.
I don’t think we can record thoughts yet. 
Perhaps none of this will be of interest to anyone other than aggregate data collectors. It’s also possible that this can be kept secure from random searches. Perhaps nothing you do is bad; you don’t buy or sell drugs, don’t launder money or engage in criminal activities. Nevertheless, do you want this info to be collected and kept perpetually?
If you say yes, fine. Your wish may be granted soon. If you say no, your concerns are about to become greater.
GPS requires a power source. Your scenario is ridiculous for that basic reason. The rest of your scenario is silly because if you use a cell phone they can triangulate your position using that. All new credit cards have RFID tech in them anyway which can track your movements from a number of feet away. Your concerns are based off of a false premise, and I’m going to put it in bold to make it clear.
You can already be tracked using the technology you have voluntarily adopted. The National ID card will do nothing but consolidate data that you already submit to the system.
The difference here is in how the records will be kept. It will help fight terrorism in that they will be able to analyze the data more accurately and more quickly to fit certain profiles of how people move. This sort of data analysis is the cutting edge in both industry and national security. It is the analysis of aggregate behaviors that will be watched. If you are getting away with petty crimes, it is unlikely that DHS will volunteer your information to the local PD. This system won’t do anything they can’t do now, it’ll only make their efforts more efficient.
Thoughts aren’t even relevant, it is action that matters. You can predict a person’s thoughts if you have the right information based upon their actions. It’s just a matter of data analysis.
Most of it already is, and the record keeping is piss poor. To think that this is some sort of fascist state program to erode your rights is silly. It’s more of an effort by the bureaucracy to improve their data management.
Not really, it’ll be the same as it ever was. Most of the objections to this sound pretty paranoid to me. As I keep arguing, the data is already collected, it’s simply that it’s not consolidated. It’s not that they don’t invade your privacy now, only that it requires more resources to do it effectively.
Exactly my point. You have just restated it. (And there are already GPS tracking systems, using the car for power, that allow parents to keep track of kids’ activities.)
Since we can already do much of this, my premise is not false. But co-ordinating much of this isn’t yet done for all citizens, all the time. A National ID will make this easier and more likely to happen.
As far as such increase in surveillance making us more secure, I have me doubts. I DON’T have doubts that it will increase surveillance of those who are innocently going about their business.
I understand that the FBI knew that some arabs were learning how to fly planes. In retrospect, it was important, but at the time, didn’t seem to be. What other events will be overlooked? If a Japanese citizen visits a health spa twice a week and talks to a Swiss watchmaker every Friday while smoking a Cuban cigar, is that cause for national alarm or not? Who makes these determinations?
Like saying “we sustained unavoidable collateral damage” instead of “they blew us up when we fell asleep”? It’s not “eroding your rights,” it’s just “improving our data management.” I feel much better now.
Piss poor record keeping is a recipe for disaster. GIGO can land you in jail.
[Dr. Johnny Fever]
If everyone is out to get you, being paranoid is just good thinking.
[/Dr. Johnny Fever]
Exactly what I’m arguing. And a national ID will make it easier to consolidate.
It’s ok as long as I can still be 175 pounds and 5 foot 10.
Musicat Your position while using your cell phone can be triangulated within feet at any given time. Every few seconds your phone contacts a tower in order to establish a connection so that you can receive calls. It pings multiple towers regularly so that you can switch off from one tower to the next. Using triangulation from three towers, you can be located within feet at any given time as long as you have a cell phone. Do you think that the government cannot simply get a warrant and have the phone company pony up within a relatively short period of time? Before long we’ll be driving cars that are constantly networked into the traffic grid. As it is now, it’s a matter of convenience, we want to be updated on traffic patterns and avoid them if we can. As time goes by, the networks will know where we are at any given time. NASA has a sky highway in production, if people want flying cars, they are going to be online with the air traffic control network 24/7. I see it as an inevitability. We live in a different world. The wildness of yesteryear is gone, it’s anachronistic. The freedom that you long for is a pipe dream, it’s over, past tense.