Just a little gem from this article :
[QUOTE=CNN]
“They are being treated as Arabs and not Americans,” one senior official said. “They basically treat them as second-class citizens.”
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So at least the US govt. now recognizes how Israel treats Arabs. Anyone here still in denial about Israelis practicing apartheid?
I don’t see the aparthied angle in this - Israel is allegedly not being evenhanded in its treatment of certain tourists. There’s nothing in the article about how they treat their own citizens.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
I don’t see the aparthied angle in this - Israel is allegedly not being evenhanded in its treatment of certain tourists. There’s nothing in the article about how they treat their own citizens.
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I read it as “The are being treated [the same] as [Israeli/Palestinian] Arabs and not not Americans”, and therefore not as American tourists.
I’d say the “second-class citizens” phrase is a direct reference to how Arabs are treated in Israel.
The U.S. doesn’t allow entry to Israelis born in certain countries, either. For instance, several years ago there was an incident where the Israeli then-Minister of Defence - a native of Teheran - wasn’t allowed through customs. So you know what? Not impressed.
[QUOTE=MrDibble]
I read it as “The are being treated [the same] as [Israeli/Palestinian] Arabs and **not not **Americans”, and therefore not as American tourists.
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My bold
Make that “They are…” and “not Americans”…
[QUOTE=Alessan]
The U.S. doesn’t allow entry to Israelis born in certain countries, either. For instance, several years ago there was an incident where the Israeli then-Minister of Defence - a native of Teheran - wasn’t allowed through customs. So you know what? Not impressed.
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I don’t see how that relates - my point wasn’t that Americans were being treated unfairly (like I care), but that the State Department was implicitly admitting that Arab Israelis are second-class citizens. Whereas in the past, on this board, the apartheid nature of the Israeli setup was denied, here you have Israel’s biggest ally 'fessing up.
[QUOTE=MrDibble]
I don’t see how that relates - my point wasn’t that Americans were being treated unfairly (like I care), but that the State Department was implicitly admitting that Arab Israelis are second-class citizens. Whereas in the past, on this board, the apartheid nature of the Israeli setup was denied, here you have Israel’s biggest ally 'fessing up.
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You got all that from that teeny tiny article?
[QUOTE=shizaru]
You got all that from that teeny tiny article?
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The article? Hell, I got it just from the one line I quoted.
The implications are obvious, but let me lay it out for you: if there was nothing wrong with the way Israel treats its Arabs, why would there be anything wrong with Arab-American s being treated as such? Clearly,Israeli treatment of (Israeli/Palestinian) Arabs must be inferior to the (expected) treatment of Americans. QED.
So because U.S. customs treats Iranian tourists with suspicion, Iranian-Americans are second-class citizens?
The quote says nothing about how Israel treats Arabs and everything about how the State Department wants other nations to treat American citizens - e.g., better than they treat everyone else. This is all about Americans expecting special privileges for being Americans.
Alessan, your obtuseness is truly remarkable at times. You are utterly missing the point. The official is equating “treatment as an Arab” with “treatment as a second class citizen”. That is, he is saying that to be treated by Israel as an Arab is to be treated as a second class citizen. If you can’t see this, go back and read it again and keep reading it till you get it.
Or, to use your example, if a US Customs official said, speaking of Iranian-American tourists, “we treat them like Iranian-Americans not Americans. We basically treat them as second-class citizens” you would not see that as a remarkably frank admission as to how America treats Iranian Americans?
I don’t think it says anything about how Israel treats citizens of Arabic descent. It does say a few things about how Israel treats tourists born in Arabic countries. There is a difference, after all. I may be Irish, but I’m not from Ireland, for example.
[QUOTE=Alessan]
The quote says nothing about how Israel treats Arabs and everything about how the State Department wants other nations to treat American citizens - e.g., better than they treat everyone else. This is all about Americans expecting special privileges for being Americans.
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To expand, this is total bollocks. For you to be able to say this, the official would have to have said something like:
*“They are being treated [like everyone else] and not Americans,” one senior official said. “They basically treat them as second-class citizens.”
The reference to “Arabs” is pointed, and no amount of burying your head is going to change that.
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath]
I don’t think it says anything about how Israel treats citizens of Arabic descent. It does say a few things about how Israel treats tourists born in Arabic countries. There is a difference, after all. I may be Irish, but I’m not from Ireland, for example.
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No? You honestly don’t see that if I say “I treat you as an x not a y. I treat you as a second hand citizen” I am saying that to be treated as an x is to be treated as a second hand citizen?
[QUOTE=Princhester]
Or, to use your example, if a US Customs official said, speaking of Iranian-American tourists, “we treat them like Iranian-Americans not Americans. We basically treat them as second-class citizens” you would not see that as a remarkably frank admission as to how America treats Iranian Americans?
[/QUOTE]
First of all, I don’t see an admission, I see an accusation - by an unnamed State Dept. beaurocrat. It’s not even an official State Dept. statement.
I could simply rephrase your headline to"Some American talks out of his ass," and bow out of this thread, but I’ll stick around a bit.
[QUOTE=Princhester]
To expand, this is total bollocks. For you to be able to say this, the official would have to have said something like:
*“They are being treated [like everyone else] and not Americans,” one senior official said. “They basically treat them as second-class citizens.”
The reference to “Arabs” is pointed, and no amount of burying your head is going to change that.
[/quote]
Could you phrase that without brackets? Here, let me try:
“They are being treated like everyone else, and not like Americans,”
If he had said that, he would have come off sounding like an asshole. So instead, he said “Arabs”, because a) they were Arabs and b) because it makes for a better sentance.
Now, as for “They basically treat them as second-class citizens,” that makes absolutely no sense. They aren’t citizens - not Israeli citizens - so how could they be treated as second-class citizens? I meaqn, second class to what? To regular American citizens? If someone comes up to you with two passports, and one of them indicates a possible security risk, then you apply harsher standards… even if the other passport was issued by the U.S. It’s basically good policy.
Anyway, That’s all besides the point. Maybe the State Dept. flack meant to say exactly what you think he was saying, and wasn’t just an idiot with poor phrasing abilities. What of it?
I mean, is the U.S. Government suddenly considered a shrewed judge of reality?
[QUOTE=Alessan]
Now, as for “They basically treat them as second-class citizens,” that makes absolutely no sense.
[/QUOTE]
Only if,as you do, you assume that because these are American tourists, the Arabs referred to are also tourists, an inference I’m not seeing
[QUOTE=Alessan]
They aren’t citizens - not Israeli citizens - so how could they be treated as second-class citizens?
[/QUOTE]
They are treated as [I read this to mean “The same as”] Israel treats its second-class citizens i.e. Arabs. Makes perfect sense to me. Is English not your first language?
[QUOTE=Alessan]
Anyway, That’s all besides the point. Maybe the State Dept. flack meant to say exactly what you think he was saying, and wasn’t just an idiot with poor phrasing abilities. What of it?
I mean, is the U.S. Government suddenly considered a shrewed judge of reality?
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It’s not so much that they’re a shrewd judge of reality as they are (I believe inadvertantly) admitting something that a lot of us have said for a long time - Israel is an apartheid state.
[QUOTE=MrDibble]
It’s not so much that they’re a shrewd judge of reality as they are (I believe inadvertantly) admitting something that a lot of us have said for a long time - Israel is an apartheid state.
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The fact that someone may share your opinion doesn’t make it an “admission”. The fact that an American govt. employee said it doesn’t make it the truth.
Indeed, it seems as though the State Dept idiot dosen’t even know the difference between Israeli Arabs and Palestinians. That’s reason enough to ignore him.
[QUOTE=Alessan]
The fact that someone may share your opinion doesn’t make it an “admission”. The fact that an American govt. employee said it doesn’t make it the truth.
Indeed, it seems as though the State Dept idiot dosen’t even know the difference between Israeli Arabs and Palestinians. That’s reason enough to ignore him.
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So, still in denial, then?
[QUOTE=MrDibble]
So, still in denial, then?
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Denial of what? That Palestinians aren’t treated like Israeli citizens? That’s true, because they’re not Israeli citizens. Of the fact that there’s a certain level of institutionalized racism against Israeli citizens of Arab descent? That’s also true, unfortunately, and I would like that to end. Of the fact that my nation’s security apparatus occasionally employs racial profiling? They do that because it works, and I’m not ashamed of not wanting to get blown up by suicide bpmbers.
Beyomd that, what am I in denial of?
[QUOTE=MrDibble]
So, still in denial, then?
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Sorry, bit snarky…
[QUOTE=Alessan]
The fact that someone may share your opinion doesn’t make it an “admission”.
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No, the fact that they said it is what makes it an admission (no scarequotes). The fact that it agrees with my opinion is just gravy.