Just as a brief hijack/addition to my previous post. Jews have fought in every war in U.S. history.
Whack-a-mole,
my ground rules apply as follows:
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instead of referring to them as the jews this or that. just say “people A think the people B don’t have the right to …” . Its a naive way of removing any prejudice from the equation. I try to be neutral since I don’t know any Jews or Arabs.
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the pre 1900 history that I wish to ignore is the part where people A lived there from 1388 to 1390 and then were kicked out …
John:
Yes. That’s better.
Brings the mind to the fact that blind desperate self-interest alone makes it foolhardy to abandon Israel. Israel know how to fight terrorists. They know how to maintain security. They’ve existed surrounded by staunch enemies for 50 years.
To put it another way: If your buddy knows Kung Fu, It’s worth buying him a beer at the bar before you step outside for the rumble.
But, while the fact that people A lived in place X from 1388 to 1390 and then were kicked out might not matter to you, it might matter to people A greatly, and might influence what’s going on now. For example, the victory of the Turks over the Serbs in the battle of Kosovo in 1389 might not seem all that important today, but it became part of the Serbian national myth, and got absorbed into Serbian culture and attitudes, so that, if you want to know what’s been happening in Kosovo recently, you need to take the 1389 battle into account, or at least, you need to take the way modern Serbians view the 1389 battle into account.
A former roommate of mine gave me some pretty good advice on the subject. He said, “Just because something seems stupid or wrong to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter to people.”
Justin now reveals his anti-semitic bigotry: << Was there any Jewish support for any war, cause, plight, fight etc. in the interest of any nation, including the US,other than their own interest? >>
This is answered point by point by Scylla, but the broader response is that there are American Jews whose interests coincide with those of all Americans, who have fought in all our wars (since and including the Revolutionary War). There are certainly other Jews (such as Russian Jews and German Jews) who did not side with the U.S. during (say) WWI.
Lumping all Jews together, and identifying Jews with Israel, is the mark of the bigot, idiot, and anti-semite.
We have seen Jewish posters here who have been critical of some of Israel’s actions: that alone should convince you that “Jews” are not monolithic. We have Americans who are critical of some of America’s actions, too; America is a land of diverse opinions. That’s the advantage of free speech. The disadvantage is that we have to listen to drivel from morons.
The U.S. supports its allies and friends, like Britain and Canada and Australia and Israel and … The U.S. is in turn supported by its allies and friends. That’s what foreign policy is all about.
The states that are most vehemently anti-Israel (like Iraq, Syria, and Taliban-Afghanistan) are also rabidly anti-U.S. This is NOT because of U.S. support for Israel, that’s only one feature of the U.S. they don’t like. They don’t like our freedoms, our democracy, our secular economy, our invasion of their culture through McDonald’s and Hollywood. They don’t like that we give women the vote and that we allow ads showing naked or semi-naked people. They don’t like our TV shows. They don’t like the fact that American English has become a universal language for so many purposes. They don’t like the fact that we tolerate all religions.
So, to sum up: Israel is our friend and ally, and has been since her founding. The states that most fanatically oppose Israel are also opposed to the U.S. and to U.S. interests (except when it comes to accepting money for oil rights.)
That’s why we support Israel.
Justin, name me a democracy amongst the Arab states. You can’t because there is none. Not ONE, among the twenty or twenty five Arab states.
Summary: we support a democracy that is our friend. We oppose dictatorships and terrorist-havens that hate us. Pretty simple, eh?
To me the key issue has always been the Israeli policy of establishing Jewish settlements on the West Bank. This is in violation of international law, UN resolution 242, etc. That’s some gratitude to the UN.
Occupying foreign territory is acceptable so long as a state of war exists, as a military expediency. But building civilian settlements indicates that they intend to occupy the land permanently, and that’s right out. It was Ariel Sharon himself who created the underhanded tactic of creating “facts on the ground” to make it impossible for the Palestinians to get their land back.
U.S. administrations have opposed these policies–going back at least 20 years–but not nearly strongly enough. Have we ever threatened to cut off the 3 billion in annual aid if they did not stop expanding the settlements?
The Palestinians, for their part, are incorrigilbly belligerent; they “never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity” for peace and to get, well most of their land back. Yet, although the settlements remain a major issue, it takes a back seat to Jerusalem, over which the Palestinians are going ballistic. Jerusalem is a symbol, the Palestinians need a country.
As I see it, the only fair solution would be for the Palestinians to agree to compromise on Jerusalem in exchange for significant dismantaling of Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza.
Well, it depends upon whether you consider Egypt an “Arab” state- it is a Republic, and Mubarak has been popularly elected to four consecutive terms.
Of course, we also massively support Egypt with military and humanitarian aid, and a rocky relationship prior to the Camp David accords has since turned into a strong alliance.
justinh- The decision to support Israel as much as possible was initially made by President Truman in 1947. If you believe Truman’s memoirs, his rationale was based mostly upon trying to prevent a Holocaust from ever happening again.
Scylla- Agreed. And regardless of whether you know kung-fu, I probably owe you a beer at some point.
Squeels:
I can’t think of a single instance of a UN resolution that the Palestinians have followed.
I think Israel’s move is a smart one. “If you don’t want to play bal neither do we.”
Contrary to UN resolutions much of the Arab world has been trying to destroy Israel by force.
I can see no good reason why Israel should continue to hold the door open with a welcoming smile on their faces. It’s good that they’re putting pressure in the other direction, and ultimately it may force the Palestinians to the bargaining table. Once they learn Israel isn’t going away, and they risk losing everything the need to compromise and reach an accord becomes greater.
Didn’t you mean portajon? I don’t think justinh has posted anything anti-semitic.
Thank you Beeblebrox,
I don’t think I am anti-semitic or anti-mormon or anti-buddist. I am trying to examine this as the struggle between 2 groups. one I have sympathy for because they were living along happy as hell and then they get some big power to dump a bunch of refugees on. the other I have sympathy for because they were murdered systematically and needed a home.
I am guilty of referring to them as Jews. I don’t know what to call them, “Israelites” would seem to the imply the residents of Israel which would include Arabs. “zionist” is that the correct term.
Were 100% of the refugees “of the Jewish faith”?
But I must admit that the $3,000,000,000 annual aid amount could be better spent in about 100 ways. What do they do with that much money? its not buying bullets. I guess the final thought is that I dont have $3 billion worth of sympathy. Lets cut them down to about $1 million a year and give the palestinians a million. then spend the rest on Americans.
The correct term for a citizen of Israel, be they Jewish, Christian, Moslem, Zoroastrian, Atheist, or whatever, is:
Israeli or Israelis.
As in or “Many Israelis support the policies of the Israeli government.”
The term Israelis does include Arabs who are citizens of Israel. I’m confused as to why you need to separate out the Arab or Moslem citizens of Israel and regard them separately. Palestinians are not citizens of Israel, hence, not Israelis.
You probably want to use the term “Israeli”, which refers to all citizens of Israel, Jew or Arab. “Jews” is incorrect because there are Israelis who aren’t Jews and Jews who aren’t Israelis. “Israelites” is usually used to refer to the inhabitants of either the united kingdom of Israel under Saul, David, and Solomon, or the Northern Kingdom of Israel, which rebelled after Solomon’s death. Zionism is a political/nationalist philosophy that says that Jews should have a country.
Hello Again,
well I guess the term for a person that lives in Israel is a Israeli but then where do the Palestinians live? Palestine? No.
Captitan Amazinous,
then I am a Justinist because I believe that I should have my own country. I might even convert to the muslim faith so my wife wont give me such a hard time. And I am not too proud to accept money from the US if I am threatened. I will be a good ally of the US. And I am not picky about who get kicks off the small island I need (ok I need a few barechested natives for servants)
are there names for every other group that want a country of their own? Dont they call them ethnic- this and ethnic- that.
No, the term for a citizen of Israel is Israeli. Most Palestinians live either in refugee camps in Jordan, Syria, etc or in the disputed territories of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Golan Heights (these areas are outlined separately on many maps). And, as I mentioned previously, they are not citizens. As I’m sure you are well aware, “Palestinian” refers back to the days before the creation of Israel, when it was called Palestine by the British.
Scylla:
What does any of this have to do with Jewish settlements in the Occupied Territories? Establishing permanent civilian settlements on land taken from one’s neighbors by force is a grievous violation of a basic international principle. UN or no UN, Arab attacks or no Arab attacks.
The question is, will the Israelis compromise? If all Arabs sincerely renounce all violence against Israel as well as their claims on Jerusalem, will Israel dismantle all their settlements in the West Bank and Gaza?
Well, ok, if you can find the small island and barechested natives, and, get international recognition, and build a society, go for it. The difference is, Israel has succeeded in this (as have other existing nations). You have not, yet.
I didn’t create the term “Zionism” It was first used, I believe, in the 1890s. I’m sorry if you have a problem with the term, but it’s become accepted.
Hopefully more informed Dopers can give more detail on the following point:
The Palestinians have always maintained that a Palestinian state should not have any Jews? Please correct me if this is wrong. Meanwhile, Israel has extended full citizenship rights to Arabs in their country. Now in the occupied territories why must the Jews leave? The Israelis never had a problem living with the Arab neighbors, except that they are attacked all the time by them. Many Arabs, on the other hand are steadfast in their refusal to live with Jews. Is this correct?
OK so after WWII some folks decided to give Jewish refugees a home. Only problem seems to be the question of whos land this was to give to begin with and why didn’t we just give them Alaska or Florida? Those were ours to give. Or did we let them choose to reclaim a land that has indeed been in bloody dispute for thousands of years? What idiot would willingly jump into the middle of a thousand year dispute?Where does it end? Why are we forming relationships with Israels enemies? What does our friend think of that? Why are we begging for use of bases in Saudi Arabia? Will our good friend Israel not accomodate us? All of the historical information provided here, fact and fiction, still does not make clear to me why we support Israel. It looks more and more like betting on the cat to whip a pack of hounds. And why would the cat willingly go amoungst the hounds to begin with?
Porta, could you possibly remain more ignorant?
Alaska and Florida belong to the United States. The United States did not establish Israel.
I know you’re bored by history, but ever heard of the Holocaust? The Israeli founders, those “idiots” as you call them, were offered a chunk of land for their own, in part to insure that those events never happen again. They took what was offered.
Fenris, who somehow feels that the fact that this is being spewed on Yom Kippur is relevant somehow.