US support of Israel

Great Debates
61

Hey Jackmanii, I’m no expert at all on the media industry – but to add to your point, isn’t it the shareholders who are more significant than the actual owners? Here’s an excerpt from an forwarded email I got (which went off on a totally different tangent, but this info seems relevant):

These are the top shareholders of
CNN parent AOL/Time Warner.

1 Janus Capital Corporation 236,950,573
2 Fidelity Management & Research
135,392,735
3 Barclays Global Investors
128,446,055
4 Alliance Capital Management L.P.
123,150,941
5 Capital Research & Management
96,781,707
6 State Street Global Advisors
92,863,179
7 Vanguard Group, Inc.
66,991,643
8 Putnam Investment Management, Inc.
63,296,299
9 American Century Investment Mgmt.
47,560,849
10 Deutsche Asset Management Americas
46,323,724
11 College Retirement Equities Fund
42,921,934
12 Wellington Management Company, LLP
39,155,589
13 AIM Management Group, Inc.
37,136,961
14 J.P. Morgan Investment Mgmt. Inc.
35,518,975
15 American Express Financial Advisors
31,107,961
16 Goldman Sachs Asset Management 30,831,164
17 Mellon Bank (Private Asset Management)
29,147,699
18 Legg Mason Inc.
27,563,859
19 Jennison Associates LLC
25,541,606
20 Zurich Scudder Investments, Inc.
20,209,135
21 Merrill Lynch Investment Managers (NJ)
18,736,157
22 Northern Trust Global Investments
18,663,609
23 Montag & Caldwell, Inc.
18,532,791
24 T. Rowe Price Associates, Inc.
16,682,834
25 New York State Common Retirement System
16,322,479

62

Jackmannii
My post in full:

"There ya go. Bingo ! As this thread indicates, there’s a lot of emotional driven domestic political capital (votes) to be made out of a US politician being seen to not wholeheartedly support Israel (financially, diplomatically and militarily – if so required).

The media in the US would be…interested in the subject. And may even form an opinion. Possibly one not wholly inconsistent with the views of their investors and owners. Would public opinion be influenced to side against that politician ?

Now there’s a question!"
<end>
Your request of me in full:
“London_Calling, would you care to expand on your statement about how “owners” and “investors” (nudge nudge wink wink) in American media compel our politicians to support Israel? If there’s a conspiracy theory you’d like to flesh out, then have at it. Don’t be bashful, boy.”
<end>
My Response:

"Okay, firstly an advisory notice:

I’m only interested in facts. If anything that follows is inaccurate, please post accordingly. It is, to the best of my knowledge (there is simply too much info for me to check it all), current and accurate."
<see my post above for requested information>
"That’s ownership, obviously investors is another game.
You ask: Is it a conspiracy ? - just business, IMHO.

Is it influential ? - what do you think ?"
<end>

** Jackmannii** - Do what you will with the information…tear it apart, rip it to shreds. And believe it or not, I’ll feel better informed for it.

If I posted inaccurate information, I apologise and take no comfort in the advisory notice I led with at the beginning of that post. If I’m ignorant of facts, change that but: " ,a loathsome bigot", please explain ?

63

Sorry London_Calling, but it does no good to repeat the same smarmy insinuations, ignore a call for supporting evidence and then faux innocently inquire why that makes you a bigot.

If you’ve got exclusive video of evil hook-nosed Jewish Media Magnates cracking the whip on cowering editors and reporters to make sure that they slant the news toward Israel, by all means share it with us.

64

As for the charge that not a single Arab country is democratic, what about Yemen? It’s a multiparty republic with free and fair elections. Has been for about 10 years now. The president is the former military strongman, but he’s had to win the last 2 or 3 elections to maintain his position and it’s possible he could be voted out.

The Saudis are “royally” pissed off at Yemen for introducing democracy into the Arabian Peninsula. If Yemen were a non-Arab country, they might have gotten credit by now for democratization. But if you define Arabs as undemocratic, then by definition nothing Arabs do can ever count as democracy. Has the United States never offered the least encouragement to this fledgling experiment in Arab democracy? Have Americans ever even heard about it?

65

It is sad to see how C K Dexter Haven is biased in his attitude towards the conflict.

He posed a question. Was that comment really necessary?

Seems clear he was talking about Israeli foreign policy. No beef here although you are not answering anything. Jews, like any such broad group, come in many political and idealogical flavors. American Jews are american citizens of Jewish religion.

Is it false to say Jews are bonded by their common denominators? Is it false to say the same of Arab Muslims? Is it false to say the weight Jews have on America is much greater than Arabs?

I believe Jews identify with Israel. You think they are neutral?

At least the guy is willing to learn. Instead you are set on demonizing the Arab nations role in the conflict.

The question is why did Israel become an ally in the first place.

This I cannot accept. The head of state yes (Taliban in particular but they are not Arab). You forget Iraq was once an US ally? It can be said the US does not like other regimes other than democracy and will interfere when convenient. Where is the difference? You will rationalize your position is right but that does not excuse such behavior. If anything we can’t hold them up to such high standards. And the reason they are Anti-US is precisely because of its support of Israel. The military aid played a vital role in the Arab coalition’s defeat.

Do you really think the reason they hate the US is because in some far away land women are allowed to vote and people are free? You’ve just described the entire European continent. The rest of your arguments are entirely your opinion. A ridiculous, generalizing diatribe. Have you ever even heard anyone from the Middle East complain the US are tolerant? Besides it does not add up to a rabid anti-US feeling. You are revealing the full extent of your anti-Arab bigotry. An ally of an enemy becomes an enemy. Simple eh?

Puh-lease. Israel and the US are not separate matters to the Arab world. “Accepting money for oil rights”? What is that? You mean trading oil for cash? Demons they are! Besides you speak like the US has never acted maliciously or turned a blind eye for the sake of its interests. Notorious exception made to Israel in 1948.

Maybe their social structures and economical foundations are maladjusted to such a Government. Maybe when they have the revolutions that allowed western countries to evolve you can expect that. Maybe when Arabs earn the average income for an american you can start passing biased judgements.

Simly put no. You have a basic premise I will agree with: Israel as a society is closer to the US. They make for a valuable ally. Your perpectives are still warped. It is a deep rooted conflict and no side is either right or wrong.

Lest anyone jump to conclusions I do not condone many Arab policies and Arafat’s in particular. But the same can be said for Israel. Sharon has been notoriously double-faced.

PS: If I cannot come back to this thread in due time my apologies in advance. My time for delurking has been notoriously short lately.

66

No one, absolutely no one in this thread is, or has been, discussing the attitude of the US media towards Israel - except you, sitting in the middle of this thread shouting your head off like a crazy guy. The only aspect of the media under discussion has been the focus, in latter posts, on possible influences on US politicians from within the US as a component in explaining what the US gets out of the ‘deal’ with Israel.(as per the OP) i.e.

Not whether there is pro-Israeli bias (or otherwise) in the media at all but, rather, possible influence over political decisions based on the potential ability of aspects of the media to influence the public perception of a politician.

That’s it – US domestic politics and influences there on. Period.

So:

  • If you want to discuss what else the US gets from the ‘deal’ or you disagree with the premise that international politics is the product of deal-making, fine. Discuss it.

  • If you are asserting that US Foreign Policy as towards Israel is not affected by the ability of parts of the media to influence public perceptions of elected representatives, that’s also fine. Discuss it.

  • If you want to provide evidence that any of the information posted above, at per your request, is factually wrong, please – as I requested at the beginning of that post – post that information. And, yes, I am interested in the facts.
    BTW, had I posted partial information on the particular subject you requested, it would have been construed as misleading (i.e. “Why do you only tell part of the story, you’re attempting to misrepresent the facts”). In my judgement – which I stand by - it was all or nothing. You wanted the damn information - if you don’t like it, refute it !

My interest is in the dynamics of politics and I’m cynical about politics because that’s what politics teaches you to be. You choose to characterise that as “smarmy”. You requested information and I posted what I understood to be factually correct information. You choose to characterise that as “bigoted”

I don’t believe my cynicism is going to allow me to be dragged into a name-calling exchange because it just looks to be a distraction from the main issue in hand – which has been, can I remind you – US domestic politics and the media, not Israel and the media.

Stop shouting and get out the road, you’ll get run over.

67

So, LC, still no evidence to back up your insinuation that “Jewish-owned” media ever have, or would torch any politician who dared show less than strong support for Israel? It figures.

I originally asked you, without calling you a bigot, to flesh out an evident conspiracy theory of yours, and you responded with a laundry list (it’d be interesting to know your source for this) of any media you could find that has, or had any Jewish ownership. Those are your pitiful facts.

Others can decide whether your views represent the middle of the road. Or road kill. I know what I’m seeing - another bigot who’s smoked himself out of cover.

68

In the last Yemeni election in 1999, Field Marshall Ali Abdallah Salih was elected President with 96.3% of the vote.

96.3? Yipes.

Anyway, let’s be honest; the reason nobody remembers Yemen is because nobody really cares about it. It’s the Canada of the Middle East. In fact, it’s less than that. Yemen is the poorest nation in the Arab world, so there isn’t even the lure of lucre to interest the West.

69

Jackmannii – I’m buggered if I’m going to provide links to every aspect of every company so pick a company from that list in my post – anyone. Here’s a starter:

New York Times Company
Arthur Sulzberger, Jr.Chairman and Publisher, plus full list of the Executives. His heritage , The Boston Globe Group,, fourteen daily regional newspapers, and the Digital Broadcast Group.

It’s all on a search engine near you.
And as I said to you in that post way up top that started this and in response to your prompting, I don’t think there’s a conspiracy – IMHO, it’s just business. But is it influential ? – I’m a political cynic, of course I think it’s influential like I believe the Corporate Lobby is influential and the Military…

70

When someone gets killed in a skirmish or attack in Israel you generally find it on the front page and the leading story on every network. When a whole truck load of people get slaughtered in East Timor you are lucky to find it at all in the US media. Conspiracy? probably not. Influential? of course.

71

LC: I checked your links. I did not see any that referred to the religion of the news executives*, even the one that you labeled as Arthur Sulzberger’s “heritage”, and which seems to have some mystical significance for you, but which looks like an ordinary mini-CV to me.

You got your list of Jewish-Owned Media from somewhere. So where did you get it? Personal research late at night in your study? The Arab League Home Page? The sort of website that also offers autographed copies of the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” and lead-lined beanies with propellers for keeping out death rays from space? Jews for Jesus?
Inquiring minds want to know.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by London_Calling *
**

And to think you did it to yourself.
Portajon: When the world’s largest oil deposits are discovered beneath East Timor and it becomes a flash point for potential large-scale war and/or global terrorism, then I think you’ll see the sort of coverage that violence in Israel or the Palestinian territory currently generates in the media. Until then, most people will not consider the conflict there as newsworthy as the one in the Mideast.

*Those cunning bastards! They’re hiding it! :rolleyes:

72

Opp’s you’re right. Got the wrong link. No idea if these links to the New York Times Book Review will work but I’m posting them in full so you can cut and paste the whole shebang:

The Private and Powerful Family Behind The New York Times:
By Susan E. Tifft and Alex S. Jones.

The Times Of My Life And My Life With The Times.
By Max Frankel.:

Now, I’m out of here for the most of the weekend, enjoy the read!

73

I did a little bit of searching and found the following article.

I don’t know The Washington Report as I’m from Ireland so if it is a major anti-jewish newspaper please forgive me.

From http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1297/9712060.html

Now I don’t know whether this is true but I’d rather not be called a bigot just for posting it.

BTW I do notice a lot of name calling* when anybody says anything negative about Israel.

Israel is no angel and has done many horrible things in it’s history. It also has had some of the hardest terrorist in the world causing mayhem there for most of it’s history. I feel sorry and pain for the people of Israel but that will not stop me looking honestly at them when it is them who are in the wrong.

  • not 100% of the time but enough to be noticable and notjust here but in RL aswell.
74

Well yojimbo, even though you’re in Ireland, if you do just a bit more searching I’m sure you can reach a conclusion on just what the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs is all about.

This is a publication run by “retired foreign service officers” that purports to offer a “balanced” view of events in the Middle East. All you have to do is scan the feature articles on their home page to get a good idea of how balanced they are - Ariel Sharon as war criminal, the Middle East troubles defined as plucky Palestinians bearing up under non-stop assaults by Israel ever since its founding, our reprehensible failure to pay attention to the causes of Osama bin Laden’s anger (which failure will “perpetuate the cycle of violence”) etc. etc.

I commend to you the high-toned Charley Reese piece (no pun intended) in which he refers to former Secretary of State Warren Christopher as a “rat-faced, cold-blooded international lawyer” for not being sufficiently tough on the Israelis. The piece you linked to is bad enough, with its rantings about Jewish-owned newspapers and the “Jewish-owned businesses” (sponsors) who supposedly lead them into perfidious acts of pro-Israel bias (totally undocumented).

Obviously, these people are not out to give us a balanced view of the Mideast. That doesn’t automatically mean they have nothing of value to say, but anything published by an organization that spews such vitriol and so mischaracterizes its mission should be viewed with profound skepticism.
There have been two individuals in this thread accused of bigotry.

One claimed that Jews have not fought in this country’s wars, an insulting and patently false charge. The vile nature of such a claim and the ease with which it could have been checked out and refuted, label anyone making it an anti-Semite.

The other instance involved insinuations that American politicians are cowed into backing Israel due to the threat from media owners and investors. When pressed for detail, the author listed some media organizations that he claims are Jewish-owned, without explaining how he comes by this knowledge, without offering any evidence of owner/investor influence on news content, or even that any biased reporting based on these factors is occurring. On further challenges to back up his insinuations, he has posted links that are irrelevant and/or non-functioning.

Let me suggest this to you: Criticism of Israel or of our alliance with that country does not constitute anti-Semitism. If an individual makes blanket statements attributing negative characteristics to an ethnic/racial/religious group, they had damned well better be accurate and well-documented, or that person is going to be slammed deservedly for being a bigot.

Hint #2: Ranting or making coy remarks indicating a belief in attempts at world domination by a “Jewish media conspiracy”, “Jewish international bankers” etc. marks one as both an idiot and an anti-Semite*. This sort of crap has been circulating among the mentally unwashed for eons, and it tends to resurface during times of turmoil. We’ll be seeing more of it, and it needs to be accurately labeled for what it is - an uninformed expression of hatred.

*even if it’s tempered with comments like “it’s just business” - and I would like you to explain just what what you mean by that, LC. By the way, I was most impressed by your link to the names of the papers in the N.Y. Times Regional Group - ones that are supposedly poised to pounce on any local politician who doesn’t fervently support Israel and threaten him with a bevy of Jewish sponsors and voters. What you may not have noticed is that virtually all of these papers are located in small to medium sized markets in the Southeast, in such hotbeds of Jewish sentiment (sarcasm implied) as Gadsden, Alabama and Thibodeaux, Louisiana. I await your explanation as to how this impressive media empire fits into the Grand Scheme of political intimidation that you posit.
Oh, and have a fun weekend. Make sure you’re wearing your lead-lined beanie, to be on the safe side. :wink:

75

I did not intend to suggest that no Jews have ever fought in American wars. It was a mistake. In the op the question is Israel not Jews. Many of the immediate post began to refer to Jews instead of Israel. I picked up on this and followed suit. I offer apology Jackmannii. It has since been pointed out by at least one person that Jews don’t neccessarily equate to support of Israel, although this does seem to be a popular opinion on this MB. I do not know a single Jewish person nor have I ever questioned the US support of Israel until now. This is obvious in the op. I am most certainly not a bigot. I don’t know enough about Israel or Jews to have a reason to be one. The purpose of this thread was to enlighten me on why we support Israel. Our support of Israel was a serious point of contention in another post “quite sane terrorist idea”. My point there being we should just find alternate energy and just leave the mid east. The knee jerk responses of why we couldn’t do this all involved Israel. So I started this thread to find out what the HUGE deal about Israel is. I am not a bigot.

76

portajon,

I’ve reviewed some of the facts about Israel in a different thread. And I really believe you when you state that you do not percieve yourself to be a bigot. But you are one.

And it is precisely BECAUSE you don’t know any real Jews in real life. Your mental image is instead made up of carictatures from the media (If the media is so Jew controlled, then why oh why was Enterprise premiering on Yom Kippur?!) and hateful messages received from a variety of sources. And you see nothing wrong with promulgating them.

It is because the world is full of people like you that many of us Jews see the need for Israel. We know that if the economy tanks real hard scapegoats will need to be found, and you have one in mind, those banking media-controlling Jews, those Jews. Your hateful sentiments are ones we’ve heard before, from brownshirts in Germany and elsewhere. Excuse me if I don’t bother to elevate your caricatures with debate.

The scariest bigot is the one who doesn’t realize that he is one.

77

OK, the BIG DEAL with Israel can actually be traced historically (not talking about the Bible or Torah) to Pope Urban II. He bribed his way into the Papal seat and made a small letter from the Byzantine Emperor(asking for a small number of Fighting men to drive off the Turkish sultan who had set up his capitol city uncomfortably close to the Capitol of Byzantium) into his bid for near total control over all of christian Europe. The details of the 1st Crusade (The Peoples Crusade and the Actual Crusade) are not for the faint of heart. (and NO I won’t write a book about it here) But suffice it to say that at least one group of the Peoples crusade decided that traveling all the way to Constantinople would be a waste of time when the “REAL” enemy to the Church (i.e.: them rotten christ-killers) were actually much closer in neighboring Germany (the area, I mean). They Maimed, Pilliaged, Plundered and put more than Hickies on the Fair damsels to be sure. AND because the whole shebang was stamped and sealed by God Himself (or so Pope Urban II would have it believed) there was absolutely no retribution. The subsequent crusades and Inquisition (which labeled Jews as Heretics right along side all the other innocent victims)Once more at the behest of GAWD AWLMIGHTY, set the stage for all European Bigotry against Expatriated Hebrews from there on out. This general antisemitism led to the Zionist Movement beginning in the 1800’s and picking up steam near the dawn of the 20th century.
Just a little background, FYI.

78

Sorry portajon. I combined your posts with others (eg London Calling) in my mind. You really may just be ignorant in search of knowledge.

Erasticity,

Not back to the first Christian Roman Emperor, Constatine, who initiated the institutionalization of Jewish persecution by Christianity in, what 300 CE or so? The Crusades were just following in his tradition. Those who refuse to convert are the enemy. Kill them and take their stuff.

Or to the failed Bar-Kokhba rebellion in 132-135 CE in which 50% of the Jewish population was killed, leaving Jews outnumbered in Israel, forbidden from acsess to Jerusulam, sold into slavery and prostitution? The fear that the Jewish “strangers” might be gaining too much influence and the pattern of scapegoating Jews for any problems, begins with the loss of the homeland here, with the creation of Jews as a minority where ever they lived.

Or to the failed Great Revolt against Rome in 66-70 CE, which resulted in the destruction of the Second Temple and the deaths of over a million Jews?

It hasn’t been a good two millenium for the Jews all the way around.

79

Yes DSeid I am ignorant of the situation. As a matter of fact I am ignorant about alot of things. That is why I ask questions, to try and understand why things are as they are. If you examine all of the post you will find that I haven’t insulted or suggested insult towards anyone or anything on the basis of Religion or race or national origin. I was very quickly labeled as a bigot just because I asked questions based on what knowledge I have and the statements made in this thread. As a matter of fact I am as unbiased as anyone when it comes to matters on a personal level. I don’t assume anything about anyone that I meet based on any preconceptions about race, religion etc. It doesn’t matter to me. That is probably why I can’t say I know any Jews. I probably do but I have never made it my business to ask anyone, except my closest of friends, about religion or ethnic background. I was taught in school and in Church that everyone is created equal and to do unto others… I guess that is part of what makes the Israel/Jew issue a little confusing. This whole thing goes against everthing I believe in. It just seems at odds with my values to support anything labeled as a “Jewish state”. That seems to imply that the Jewish people have a country of their own for the people of their religion. Our country is a nation of imigrants. I just don’t see alot of other groups that are Americans dividing their allegance in such a public way. I don’t see Americans of African decent demanding military and monetary support of African nations under the pretense that they may see the need to leave America someday and need a second home to go to. I am of Irish decent and I would never in my wildest dreams consider the need for me to return to Ireland. I am American with no question of what nation I owe my entire allegance.

80

Still think you haven’t committed any ethnic slurs in this discussion? Oh, that’s right. This was a “mistake”.

And you’re still making “mistakes”, as in that crack about divided allegiance. I am well aware that many Americans of Irish descent have a keen interest in backing a united Ireland and encouraging U.S. policy toward that goal - but it would be stupid and insulting to suggest that they have some divided loyalty for trying to influence foreign policy.

portajon, there comes a time when pleading ignorance will not get you off the hook for charging heedlessly into making insulting, uninformed, bigoted statements. Read up on the Holocaust, make an effort to talk to Jews rather than thoughtlessly volleying your preconceived notions at them, and you have a chance to break out of that brainlock in which you’ve imprisoned yourself. Until then, you’ve marked yourself as a bigot.