You aren’t on the distribution list for that memo.
As if a military presence constitutes as subsidizing :rolleyes:
I recall that after Germany didn’t went along with Bush’s war, Rumsfeld “threatened” to withdraw the troops from Germany, perhaps thinking that a few bakeries that need to be closed down as a result will topple Germany’s economy. Since it would be an outright dumb move to withdraw the troops - because once you leave for good there’s no way you can establish bases in Germany again - that plan was quickly discarded.
A reduced contingent would make sense, but if I were president of the USA, I would not dream of giving up military bases abroad. As a European however, I say: Yes, Brutus, please stop subsidizing us and leave. 
As for 9/11: Of course the US government could have staged it if they wanted to. It’s not unheard of that governments stage acts of terrorism to push through laws and agendas that would otherwise not fly. Whether they did stage it is another matter, but outright denying that they could have the means to stage it is a bit naive - just how incompetent do you think the government is?
Holy land my ass. Saudi Arabia is no more holy that Denmark, Japan or Sierra Leone. And the goddamn Holy City of Najaf no more holy than Brighton, Silkeborg or Waco-Texas.
Heh, Waco is an interesting choice to add in there. 
But back to the troop redeployments. Kerry says:
To which I respond with a heart-felt WTF? The assinine ‘withdrawing unilaterally’ is pretty funny; Kerry is swinging for new low. But of more concern is his concern over 12,000 troops going elsewhere vs. nuclear weapons. What the living hell is a infantry brigade going to do against a nuclear strike? (Apart from die, should the nukes get used.) Doesn’t Lurch think that perhaps strategic forces pose more of a deterrent to NK than do some battalions of mechanized infantry?
You don’t think relieving you of own defence obligations constitute subsidizing? Anyway as a European, I say: speak for yourself.
There seem to be some disagreement about what that Zeit poll actually was about. Certainly google reveal that a lot of news sources describe the results as a belief by the Germans that the American government itself was directly behind the terror. E.g. here from the Guardian:
Guradian Weekly Review So does anyone have the original poll questions in German?
Anyway, saying the answers were merely reflecting the peoples’ idea about what in theory could possible have happened in an alternative universe is being fairly obtuse (especially considering the widespread popularity of other German 9/11 conspiracy literature). It seems clear enough that what was responded on was what is likely to have happened there and then. This is especially tasteless considering a lot of it was planned right there on German soil and helped on by German funds, and I have to wonder how many Germans these days believe the Holocaust is merely a big conspiracy cooked up by Jews to garner some sympathy for the creation of Israel.
As for the troop pull out. One has to wonder whether the American military presence has acted as an excuse for Europeans to deny the hard realities of the world, living in insulated security guaranteed by other peoples’ sons. Certainly it didn’t prepare us to face the Soviet empire or deal effectively with conflict right on our doorstep in Yugoslavia. I’m hoping it’ll work as a motivation, as the first step for us to take on our own responsibilities. I also hope to win the lottery.
Eh? I was not aware the US Army relieved the Bundeswehr from the obligation to defend the country. Can you elaborate your point somewhat?
As far as the presence of the US troops is concerned - they did help when the flood catastrophe was here in 2002 and people are grateful for it, but don’t kid yourself into believing the Bundeswehr was twiddling thumbs in the meantime. And don’t kid yourself either into believing a sustained military presence is just out of goodwill and not out of personal interest. If it were just out of goodwill, I’d advise the US to withdraw troops and save money, but as it stands, I hold to my initial assessment that giving up military bases abroad would be foolish.
I did and I hope that I didn’t indicate otherwise. Respectively I am glad you only speak for yourself as well.
There are not enough rolleye-smileys in this world for the above comment - what exactly has your opinion about holocaust-denial to do with 9/11?
What current security threat to Germany is there, that could be thwarted by a token presence of the US military, but not by German soldiers?
In post No 32 above, Spiny Norman not only posts a link to a detailed report of the survey, but quotes the specific question put, which was:
Glauben sie, dass die US-Regierung die Anschläge vom 11. September selbst in Auftrag gegeben haben könnte?
The only answers recorded are “Ja” or “Nein”. The question seems badly worded to me, since those answering “Ja” will include both those who believe that the US government could have organised the attacks and may have done or probably or certainly did, and those who believe that the US government could have organised the attacks but didn’t or almost certainly didn’t.
The Guardian report looks like a travesty. Analysing the response of the under-30s to this question, it says that 31% or so of the respondents “do not rule out the possibility that the attacks may have been organised by Washington”, but when analysing the response of the population as a whole who gave the same answer to the same question, it says that 19% “believe that the American government ordered 9/11”. These are two quite different opinions and at least one of them must be a gross misrepresentation of what the survey actually shows.
There has been some grumbling here in Britain about the withdrawal of the f-15 fighters (from Lakenheath I think).
The grumbling takes two parts:
Firstly the f-15s are an integral part of Britain’s Air defense plan - we’ll have to re-write it, but it’s a bad time for us as we are awaiting some new aeroplanes - specificall the JSF and Typhoon, and our current aircraft - tornados - are getting a bit long in the tooth. However I don’t know of any brit who thinks that we’re likely to get attacked from the air - and the only possible defense use for the RAF at present would be to shoot down a 9/11 type highjack - and we’ve got plenty of firepower to do that.
The second and more serious grumble is that it will dramatically reduce the amount of time that the RAF spends training and flying with their US counterparts. Given that the UK and the USA actually fight real-life shooting air wars together (and not many other countries do this) it is felt that the reduction in the time together won’t help either country.
Other than that we’re not bothered.
Your not “America” your an “American”. Besides we hate Bush not America, so don’t feel threatened… we actually treat foreigners way to nicely sometimes. Do visit Brazil while the dollar is stronger than our currency.
Naturally I do suggest you don’t say you like Bush though… at best they will think your stupid and snicker… at worse they will swear at you.
Little comment: It’s quite common for the poor and lower middle class to name kids after american presidents. We have an awful lot of Washingtons, Kennedies and Jeffersons. Some Clintons are cropping up now. I have never seen any Bushes.
um…I was making a reference to the likes of Osama Bin Laden, who have decried the presence of US infidels on Saudi Arabian soil, which is the host (probably not the right word- Steward?) of the holy cities of Mecca and Medina.
Maybe not as holy as Waco may be to you, but considered so by others. We’re not all Baptists, you know.
hhmmm there is another aspect…
Would US troops stationed in Romania or other “Coalition of the Willing” allies of the US be easier targets for terrorist attacks ? Germany is a pretty safe place… but some of those eastern europeans can be more sloppy ?
Anyway… what would troops in Romania help against terrorism…
I was mostly thinking of the cold war, such things as the Berlin air bridge, and the deterrence umbrella extended to West Germany. I’m afraid, to use a somewhat tired idiom, had it not been for the US the answers to the Zeit poll would have been restricted to Da/Neit.
A man willing to embrace one ridiculous conspiracy theory will embrace another. Ahh yes, smilies the last refuge of the foolish mind. You throw a few LOLs my way too and watch me quiver. Unfortunately no amount of smilies are going to remove the fact that certain very distasteful theories regarding 9/11 have gained widespread support in Germany. I do not begrudge the Americans who wonder whether people entertaining such theories actually can be classified as friends or allies.
Well I happen to believe our wealth and technology demand a moral responsibility to intervene in conflicts even where immediate threat to national sovereignty is not at risk. But even disregarding that, you seem to believe defending German interests starts and stops at the borders of Germany. Few things could be more wrong. Perhaps you also believe Germany is immune to international terror or free from refugees flying conflicts such as the Bosnian.
Dude, I am not interested to see you quiver, stop hitting on me.
It’s convenient to just look at the end result and ignore what came before: Germany along with the rest of Europe stood behind the USA in unwavering support after 9/11.
The fact that the Bush administration presented forged evidence about non-existant weapons of mass destruction to sell a war and other such despiceable acts naturally lead to people contemplating even less likely scenarios.
To ignore that Germany was backing each and every US decision prior to 2002 and going “can they be classified as friends?” is not helping the situation either.
Fortunately even George W. Bush has more common sense and tries to mend the shaken relationship between Germany and the USA. To complain about a lack of trust after causing the rift strikes me as a bit… Hypocritical.
It would be best to save your belief for Sunday.
Oh but I’m nothing but a love sick pubby at heart. Besides my wife is at that part of the month even evil right wingers live in constant fear of, so this is all the loving I’m going to get.
Every hore has got a sad story – so cry me a river.
Yes because Germany was completely without fault in causing the rift.
Posting to the SDMB is my Sunday school assignment.
Too…much…irony…