“Given that:”
**
What exactly does this have to do with anything? I don’t want to argue “strawmen” here but I’ve seen strawman arguments more relevant than what you keep bringing up here. Explain yourself.
Rhum:
It’s quite clear that the motivations of the people in the vehicle as of now are unknown to us. I don’t claim that any of the above proves anything, since nothing can be proven yet. I do say it makes the theories of the OP and latter posts unlikely.
And in my opinion very uncalled for, in what they imply about people that are in all likelyhood just victims of a horrible fate. Usually you wait for the incriminating evidence before saying someone brought death upon themself for dubious reasons.
For example: given that the woman was a woman, is it likely that she willfully sacrificed the lives of five small children? Unheard of, I might add that suicide bombers blow up their own children.
Bloody unlikely.
Azael:
…suggests (quite naturally for the non-conspiratorial mind) that these people were on the run.
A strawman argument is by definition not relevant for anything else than distorting the views of your opponent.
“given that the woman was a woman”… No shit?
Sorry, meant to be “given that the driver was a woman”. Heh.
Re: the “Kill 'em all,” ever see Full Metal Jacket? “…the Jungian thing, sir…” (“born to kill” + peace sign on helmet)?* Military guys have all sorts of scary slogans and habits that are helpful in summoning up the courage to go back to work at a job that can kill you at any moment. It doesn’t mean the soldier in question really wants to kill, ah, “em” all.
*The Internet Rules! Here’s the text and .wav file.
In any other context I would agree with you. It is only because of the other things we have seen the Iraqis doing that this is even an issue.
Rhum:
Keep in mind though that some of those things i suspect you are referring to, are as of yet very unconfirmed.
As long as I wasn’t missing anything… And how is that any more compelling than the fact that the van was crowded with women and children? It still sheds no light on the circumstances that led her to ignore the soldiers waving her down. Perhaps she was afraid and overreacted, perhaps the soldiers were afraid and overreacted… I can entertain those possibilities. And you are correct in saying that it is far too early to make any concrete judgements as to what really happened.
Perhaps my “conspiratorial mind” is overwrought but I cannot dismiss out of hand the possibility that darker forces may have involved. And the fact that the van was loaded hardly changes my misgivings… it smells of “plausible deniability.” The actions of the Fedayeen Saddam and the uncited allegations of a Shiite cleric are all I have to go on so far… so I won’t pretend my case is set in stone.
Azael:
Yes conspiratorial mind indeed…
My point is that a vehicle full of women and children and their personal belongings in a war-stricken country should suggest a very likely interpretation.
I have in previous posts made my position clear on the difference between “dismissing the possibility” of a different interpretation, and actually believing it is likely.
You seem to believe it is likely. You say you will continue to do so, even though you acknowledge that your case is based on your views on a paramilitary force that are as of yet not in any way associated with the event.
It is in this situation i urge you to consider the possibility that things are, in fact, what they look like. In that case you have wrongly accused at least one innocent, quite possibly dead person. But since you don’t bother to specify who / how many of the people in the vehicle you think are “Fedayeen Saddam” you are actually accusing all of them. Dead people with friends and relatives.
Do you not think this has gone past “civilized” quite some time ago? Because I do.
The fact that this thread exists says as much. Again, I am disgusted that some people here would try to confound the tragic deaths of innocent women and children as some sort of evil plot, hatched by Iraqi’s to gain further sympathy to their cause.
IOW, trying to “justify” their deaths as wilful acts on the parts of the victims.
Barf.
Indeed, but I do believe in being more civilized than the other who has yet to be enlightened, young grasshopper. 
Living in a world where governments (Iraqi and American alike) encourage such demonisation of the enemy excuses the individual mistake to some extent.
Consider the following, from both points of view:
On the one hand, you are a bunch of US marines, manning a checkpoint similar to one at which there had been a suicide bombing the day before. As marines, you’ve been in combat longer than you expected, in conditions which were apparently rougher than you expected. Worse, the people you have been sent to liberate are not welcoming you with open arms, flowery garlands and offers too good to refuse. It’s starting to look like the old military FUBAR, and really isn’t fun any more. Suddenly, a van full of foreign -looking Iraqis comes careening towards tou. You (or one of your friends) yells a warning. They don’t seem to be stopping. The van seems to be full of people – too full. There’s something suspicious about it, but you don’t know what. And they’re still coming towards you. Shit. Training was not like this. You point your weapon at them, and they still don’t stop! What the feck is going on?
On the other hand, you are an Iraqi extended family who are fleeing a battle zone. You’ve been besieged by the Great Satan for the past decade, as well as suffering the depivataions of your own home-grown tyrant and his twisted family. Now there’s a war on, and a bunch of these enemy soldiers (their faces covered in strange materials and with sinister weapons) are surrounding the town. Maybe they’ve come to rape the women and kill the children. That’s what they do, these infidels, when they’re not bombing and attacking Muslims. Now one of them is yelling something, in a language you don’t speak. But if you can get past the checkpoint and out into the desert, you might be able to hide. After all, the desert is home to the Arab.
Can you see that this might lead to the sad situation which we had, without any coercion on either side? Just a bunch of scared people trying to live through the war.
That’s my opinion. Of course, I could be wrong, but it seems more likely than some subterfuge or coercion by the Federyeen.
Nothing screams uncivilized quite like a few people having a conversation. Barf indeed. :rolleyes:
This was indeed precisely my point, and I still find it sad to see assertions and the like by a bunch of people who, to put it politely, have no small degree of ignorance on Iraq, the region and the situation.
Actually what is need is actual knowledge, not simple stereotypes.
Actually, it is not. Suicide bombings are novel – haven’t occured in Iraq before. Palestine is not Iraq I may add. Even there, the emergence of suicide bombings is something new. Sunni Islam especially has long (centuries long) taken a very dim view indeed of suicide.
Presently it is being rationalized in terms of ‘fighting back’ – in a sense in this view the suicide bomber is soldier spending his life more fruitfully than charging up a hill.
But let me repeat, “well-known” is a statement far off base.
Now of course one of the problems is indeed the poor bastards in the field likey have this level of knowledge of the country.
(And before Shodan comes charging in to rant on off key, the purpose of the post is to address a generalization on a point, not to critique the soldiers)
Responding to Stoid responding to X Slayer’s “observation” re unliklihood of women and men sharing a service as group taxis are often called:
Ex-Saudi Arabia, it is quite typical for unrelated people to share public transport. While the more conservative do not like it very much, poverty imposes its own rules.
In short, even in conservative areas, the sharing of public transport by men and women, unrelated, is typical and uneventful; although nota bene, of course it is atypical for women to travel alone. They usually travel with several friends or a male relative. This of course is harldy restricted to Islam, one finds the same thing throughout the developing world.
Maybe. Strangely enough, some military guys seem to be more dependent on it than others. When people of the same military, beat up journalists from allied nations, and an officer, in a no-threat situation, tells the journalists his guys are ‘dogs trained to kill, and kill they will if you move’, then it is doubtful whether there is really no intent to kill 'em all, let God sort them out. (Based on an interview with the journalist in question on German TV. A less detailed report of the incident can be found on http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/278175.html )
This, and similar incidents also described at http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=5619
Nice tactic. Next stop: Iraqi people have you met the Republic Guard? Makes it easier to handle opposition if you pretend they are all alike.
Indeed. It is about those who would rather invent fantasies about suicide attacks by entire families rather than face the ugly truth that wars cause incidents like this. It is about those who prefer the happy ignorance that war means high-tech bombing, impressive tv footage and nothing that might put you off your breakfast. Suddenly, when faced with the reality of children getting shot, by the good guys even, they’d rather spin tales about it maybe being a scheme of evil Iraqis. Honestly, if only they’d fight properly things like this would never ever happen and this war would be a whole lot less distressing for everyone.
’I saw the heads of my two little girls come off’
Click link for rest of story.
Keep demonizing…keep spinning, keep thinking you’re always the good guys. I imagine that’s much easier than facing the truth of this madness. After all, it is not innocent American women and children that are dying. Just don’t bother asking next time they kill some of yours “why they hate you.” Because now you know.
In the meantime, consider those ten (it was ten, not seven) dead Iraqi women and children “liberated.” I’m sure they are quite grateful.
Futile Gesture, pleasure meeting you.
Christ . From the above link
I’m nearly crying reading this.
War is hell all right. Those poor people.