And, what is truly amazing is how much of that devastating presentation with its slam-dunk case now seems to have been correct…at least as far as we know at this point in time! (When you write history, it is also helpful to include more recent facts and discoveries that might shed some light on the circumstances at the time.)
Well, yes, it is. But, one good direction to go at this point would be toward starting to show a little more humility and respect for the opinions of those nations who were saying that before the fact.
Man…That is a way more colorful variation on the “they made their bed, now they can sleep in it!” saying. I’ll have to remember that!!
There’s one example of revision, right there. You do know better. You’ve been told repeatedly in GD, with unwarranted patience. “Under no circumstances” my ass. The active words were “çe soir”. It’s like december never left.
So, you still haven’t told us, what do you think Canada should do now? Or do you even give a flying fuck?
This is a fruitless task to set Powell on, as long as there’s no hint that the people who fucked this situation up in the first place (which includes him) will be removed from authority. No other nation can be expected to supply more RPG fodder under US command.
Only if control is internationalized, with those widely seen as imperialists and bunglers in the background at best, can the situation really be changed. Only a total change in attitude from Washington will allow that. Then the world will have to, and be able to, acknowledge that the situation is what it is and affects every one of us, and take ownership of it. But I don’t see any sign of that happening yet - the only happy talk is from Powell himself, and his credibility tank is running dry.
The problem is, it’s not the U.S. government that’s going to be “fucked” if the situation doesn’t turn around. Bush might not win reelection, but he doesn’t need the money, and if his staff is laid off, they can all become lobbyists and policy analysts somewhere. The people who are “fucked”…the people who are going to suffer and die, are average Iraqis and US soldiers, who are going to contine being blown up and attacked by anti-US guerillas and terrorists.
Are you seriously suggesting the UN ignore growing suffering and anarchy that might destablize the Middle East just to teach George Bush a lesson?
What’s up with this “just to teach George Bush a lesson” argument? It looks and smells like a strawman. If the other nations in the security council decide that it is in their best interest to curb the cowboy-unilateralism of the world’s only superpower, then they’ll make the strategic decision to let the US go hang. In order to prevent such a debacle, the president must offer these nations enough cash, debt protection, or profitable opportunities to make saving the Iraqi people from chaos seem an attractive option. From all accounts, the Bush administration is moving in this direction, but hasn’t really satisfied anyone yet.
I went through that too, someone from France patiently explaining to me how France would’ve been behind us 100% had we only waited the required 30 or 60 days or something. I disagreed with it then and still will, obviously, since no one here can speak with any authority and there’s no evidence that they’d have supported anything at some future date, either. And it doesn’t matter. Suffice it to say that they were dead against the planned invasion, we knew it, their pro-offered plan involved increasingly invasive inspections but did nothing to unseat the regime, and we disagreed with it on that basis. It’s a diplomatic disagreement, not a prizefight.
On the question of the UN riding in to save our butts - I’m shocked. I thought this was merely a political move by Russia and France to maintain control over the Iraqi oil supply via the UNSC. It’s politics after all - they have their contracts and outstanding debt to think of. We have all the real “willing” that we’re going to get as far as troops go and a prior UNSC resolution that paves the way for that, enough to please some of France and Germany’s fellow EU members at least. Don’t expect big contributions from the current opposition.
If France was doing anything other than protecting Hussein, why did they veto the nomination of Rolf Ekeus, Kofi Annan’s personal nominee and widely considered the best man for the job, as head of the weapons inspections?
Still no sign of those Weapons Of Mass Destruction.
I would be interested to see if the UN, multi-national, co-operation Bush now desires extends all the way into the oil fields. Or is it a case of the US looking after those, thanks very much, if you others could just tidy things up around the troublesome natives.
If the UN goes in it should be purely on their terms. The US (and UK, we’re not blameless) have made a complete screw-up in exactly the way they were warned they’d make a screw-up, so they have lost all rights to dictate policy.
If anything the mess makes plain how Bush doesn’t have a clue and he was led by gun-ho advisers whose sights were solely on the oil, foolishly believing that over-whelming military superority is all you need to solve problems. It’s also increasingly obvious that the arguments presented before the war were at the very least over-inflated, if not total lies. The only conclusion we can reach is that Bush (and Blair) thinks their electorate are idiots who’ll swallow anything, except this time they’ve been caught out.
Is this a joke? So it’s all France’s fault? That’d be the France that said there was no evidence to support an invasion and to date has been proven entirely correct? No matter what other political axe France may, or may not, be grinding, they have the advantage of being right. I suspect it’s this, more than anything, that irks you.
And France as ‘leader of the EU’??? You need to inform the Euroskeptics of Britain immediately, they’re under the impression that this is the German’s plan.
And I fail to see what problem you have with the EU (or even the UN) being a “check on American power”. Any position where a single entity has overwhelming supremacy is a bad thing, no-matter who. A world with a single super-power is an unsafe place to be, as Bush has only started to demonstrate. It’s this that has made his disregard for the UN so dangerous and it all the more important that the UN does not accept a subordinate role in clearing up the mess.
Maybee, they don’t care about the Iraqis, because they care about themselves. But what is this “keeping America down” idea? Where did you get this from?
A quibble, mayhaps. Maybe not too important, depending, but thats the trouble with quibbles.
Colin Powells “devestating” presentation to the UN.
It was a load. A steaming pile of horsepucky. As has been demonstrated in these boards not once, but several times. You would be hard pressed to find one verifiable fact in that presentation.
And how did our Fearless Leader respond? Surely you remember? He jutted out his widdle chin, stamped his widdle foot, and insisted he would proceed with the second vote regardless of French intransigence, to “see everybody’s cards.” Common wisdom was that he wanted to prove that a majority of the SC was on his side, only thwarted by perfidious France. Ooopsy.
Then someone whispered the latest head count in his shell-like ear. Poof! All gone! Never happened, never said it.
“Powells devastating presentation”. Your loyalty might be noble, Sam, were it not squandered on such unworthy men.
Again the spin and misinformation and the lies. The USA is holding the Iraqi people captive for its own ends. France has said it is willing to participate if certain conditions are met and among those conditions are that power is transferred back to an independent Iraqi government in short time and that the UN is given more authority. It is the USA who is objecting to this. The USA is acting like a spoiled brat. It wants to have its way and it wants others to play along without being given any authority or say which is just ridiculous. The cause of the situation in Iraq lies squarely on the USA and it is the responsibility of the USA to correct it. Other countries have NO obligation or responsibility to help the USA out, much less with the attitude the USA is taking.
The USA is holding the Iraqi people hostage for its own ends, just like Saddam Hussein was doing. Saddam Hussein could have ended the sanctions just by going along with the UN. That’s what the USA said all along. It was Saddam’s Hussein’s faul;t if the Iraqi people were suffering. Now we are exactly in the same situation: if the USA wants the UN to cooperate all it has to do is go along with what the UN is demanding. But it refuses and then it blames others. The situation in Iraq is 100% to be blamed on the USA and it is the USA who has the obligation to clean up the mess. Demanding that other come in to take orders is the height of arrogance (and stupidity).
We’re objecting because it makes no sense. Which makes French demands look like a temper tantrum. Independent Iraqi government before a constitution? (What do we do with the Governing Council already there?) Transfer authority to the Iraqis and the UN?
Explain that one please. Transfer power to an Iraqi government immediately and give more authority to the UN. Exactly what does the UN need authority to do?
It is just amazing how they can say these things with a straight face and not die of shame. After calling the UN “irrelevant”, calling France and Germany all sorts of names, after saying the USA would act alone to save the world from itself, now we get this gem: Powel says the USA had planned to include the UN all along.
The president believes in the UN? WTF? When was he born again to the UN? Because he sure didn’t just a few short months ago.
The idiocy and incompetence is astounding. The first thing you need to be a good liar is to stick with lies which are plausibly true. If you go around saying you believe things which are so far off no one believes them and no one believes you believe them, then you are just labeled a liar and nobody takes you seriously.
My point was that at the time, it was perceived that way. There was much commentary at the time about how well Powell made the case. Do you dispute this? It’s irrelevant if you think that in hindsight it turned out to be a ‘steaming pile’. NO ONE saw it as that at the time. For the French to suddenly come out and say they’d veto any resolution seemed like a betrayal to Powell and the rest of the U.S. government.
No, Sam, the French never made any such ultimatum - in fact the reason Clare Short resigned from the UK government was because of the blatant misrepresentation of the French position.
The French position was that Hans Blix must be allowed to finish his inspections. He never got the chance to be obstructed.
Au Contraire! LOTS of people were disappointed by Powell’s failure to produce anything like a smoking gun on Iraqi WMD’s. The satellite photos were immediately called into question, as were the tapes mentioning “nerve agents.” If you’ll take the time to review the relevant threads here in GD, you’ll see that your recollection of history is deeply flawed. Powell’s speech did little to quell the debate here over whether Iraq posed a credible threat. In the big wide world, it convinced a lot of people who already wanted to believe, but that left MANY folks shaking their heads over the credulity of the masses. No matter how inconvenient the truth may be, the fact is that people who aren’t easily suckered are people too.
You are being disingenouos and I am not inclined to play silly games. The USA wants to keep military and political control of Iraq while asking other countries to help out. Other countries have said if they are going to foot the bill then the political and military control of Iraq must be transferred to the UN and the USA has said “no way”. Anyone who thinks that the right way to do things is for the UN to pay the bill and for the USA to call the shots is a fool. He who pays the bill calls the tune.
The USA going against the UN caused the problem. Now it is asking the UN to help out but wants to be in charge. It is arrogant ans stupid and can only backfire.
I’ll have to remember that!!