Using the toilet on Shabbat

[tzimmerman]

@schindler

Similarly, when a person has resolved to commit himself or herself to the system that is halakha, the details which arise from strict observance of Sabbath laws do not bother them, whether they regard cooking (not allowed), building a raft to save people (allowed obviously), swatting a mosquito (generally not allowed to kill on the Sabbath), or pre-tearing toilet paper (not allowed to engage in constructive tearing).

Additionally, when one comes to view religion as a framework for ALL of life, and every action has religious significance, pre-tearing toilet paper before the Sabbath is not a “more” religious action than taking your morning piss on Tuesday. And indeed, there is a blessing following that as well, thanking God for providing us with a working “plumbing system”. The religious lifestyle isn’t afraid to embrace profane actions and elevate them to Divine service.

That is quite possibly the most ridiculous piece of sophistry I’ve ever read. “When a person has resolved to commit themself to the system …the details do not bother them…” really? When an obsessive compulsive person has commited themselves to indulging their compulsions, do you think the quality of their life doesn’t suffer? When a victim of childhood abuse commits themself to living in denial of their underlying trauma, does that trauma not affect them? Your operating under the same premise: that lying to yourself, denying a plain reality, works.
It is obvious to any person of average intelligence, with reasonable access to the modern free market of knowledge, that the idea of planning toilet paper usage to please an invisible man that lives in the clouds is absurd. Just like the idea of Santa Claus is absurd. So they lie to themselves. They are forced to deny on one level what they know is reality on another. The notion of an intelligent informed person who can “view religion as a framework for ALL life” is a fallacy. A person suffering from a cognitive dissonace in their own concept of existence can, by definition, NEVER have a truly holistic view of that existence.
Constant cognative dissonace creates constant tension, which creates obsession, which creates compulsion.

Is religion as bad as, say, drug addiction? It depends. If your talking about a religious zealot, say a radical Islamic terroist, who subjects himself to a constant state of self-abuse and fear for the sake of his delusion, and eventually turns that pain outward through hatred, I would say yes. From there, everything else is matter of degrees. It’s all an attempt to deny the reality that you can plainly see.

At the very least, a very non-commital, passively religious person, is essentially giving themselves an excuse to ignore the questions of philosophical fulfilment that are rooted in all of us. This at least is somewhat understandable. People are lazy.

The real tragedy lies in people that are willing to work passionately and give real energy to pursuing that fulfillment, but who throw that energy away on fairy tales because they guarantee happy endings. They sacrifce the gift of reason to the fear of the unknown. Boundless energy turns into mindless waste. They spend their energy worrying about which way to tear the toilet paper, or how many angels can fit on a pin.

Can they find some measure of happiness living like this? Certainly, but, for a person who is actually willing to WORK for self-awareness, they are selling themselves short.

[Junior_Spaceman]

This thread is moving towards GD territory which is fine, but a bit tedious. It’s a given that if you think religion is bunk, you’re going to think every aspect of keeping Shabbat is bunk.

I can say that as someone who used to keep Shabbat, but does not at the moment, the whole idea of Shabbat is actually one of the most logical and enjoyable parts of living life as a religious Jew. Sure, there’s a lot of work that goes into the leadup for everyone, but no more than goes into planning for a vacation (a link that someone else pointed out before).

You don’t laugh at people and call them absurd for rushing around packing their suitcase, arranging visas and passports, planning and booking accommodation, and so on and so on, for their ‘restful’ trip overseas. It’s just part of the process. Some vacationers, like some observant Jews, will get so caught up in the red tape and obsessiveness, that they’ll miss the whole point of what they’re doing, and end up dreading that time of year when they go away. On the other hand, for people who approach Shabbat from the right perspective, it is exactly like that longed for holiday.

In the same way as picking up on every little thing someone is doing in planning their world trip (Why do you have to get that form? Why do you think paying for a place to live when you already have a house is a good idea?) seems strange to the person looking forward to their holiday, asking about the tiny details of Shabbat for the purpose of finding absurdity seems strange to an observant Jew.

Having a day where there are no interruptions from the outside world, and where you can concentrate on your family, friends, and your own personal self-reflection is something that the modern world doesn’t usually allow. Shabbat forces you to disconnect for 25 hours, but it’s not a punishment, and that’s why all the ‘work arounds’ are allowed.

I have plenty of problems with religion, but as I said before, the idea of Shabbat is one of the best things about it.

[Keeve]

@tzimmerman

At the very least, a very non-commital, passively religious person, is essentially giving themselves an excuse to ignore the questions of philosophical fulfilment that are rooted in all of us. This at least is somewhat understandable. People are lazy.
…
Can they find some measure of happiness living like this? Certainly, but, for a person who is actually willing to WORK for self-awareness, they are selling themselves short.

Yes, those who are passively religious are lazy, and are not working toward self-awareness, nor towards much else. Very sad.

But you seem to consider all religious people in that category. Several of the posters on this thread are actively religious, and have quite obviously spent a lot of time working on questions of philosophy and trying to understand it all. We’ve come to different answers than you have.

Cognitive dissonance? Not me, no thank you.

[schindler]

@tzimmerman

It is obvious to any person of average intelligence, with reasonable access to the modern free market of knowledge, that the idea of planning toilet paper usage to please an invisible man that lives in the clouds is absurd. Just like the idea of Santa Claus is absurd. So they lie to themselves. They are forced to deny on one level what they know is reality on another. The notion of an intelligent informed person who can “view religion as a framework for ALL life” is a fallacy. A person suffering from a cognitive dissonace in their own concept of existence can, by definition, NEVER have a truly holistic view of that existence.
Constant cognative dissonace creates constant tension, which creates obsession, which creates compulsion.

At the very least, a very non-commital, passively religious person, is essentially giving themselves an excuse to ignore the questions of philosophical fulfilment that are rooted in all of us. This at least is somewhat understandable. People are lazy.

The real tragedy lies in people that are willing to work passionately and give real energy to pursuing that fulfillment, but who throw that energy away on fairy tales because they guarantee happy endings. They sacrifce the gift of reason to the fear of the unknown. Boundless energy turns into mindless waste. They spend their energy worrying about which way to tear the toilet paper, or how many angels can fit on a pin.

Can they find some measure of happiness living like this? Certainly, but, for a person who is actually willing to WORK for self-awareness, they are selling themselves short.

Can you educate me further? I never even thought to consider that there might not be an invisible man in the clouds… this changes EVERYTHING. “intelligent informed people”? You need to get out more. I can introduce you to some intelligent informed people with PhD’s in philosophy who are observant Jews, and even more who are theists.

You keep on skipping multiple steps between the extremely specific paper-tearing, and “pleasing God”. Like I said, the toilet paper is incidental, the issue is constructive tearing on the Sabbath, and that is, in turn, a category of prohibited work on the Sabbath, the observance of which is testament to God having created everything. If you start at the top of an edifice and it looks silly to you, having never seen its foundation, of COURSE you’ll poke fun. But our building has stood for thousands of years, and not due to any shortage of “intelligent informed people”.

Also, I admire your certainty that there is no God. I wish my theism came with the faith of your atheism. I’ve had to actually struggle with mine…

i didn’t call religion a framework for existence (though I suppose it is that too). it’s a framework for LIFE, ie, every action is governed by it. Before speaking I must ask “is what I am about to say consistent with my image of how a servant of God should speak?” Or any other action. I don’t need to defend this system from you; it’s worked for me and countless others, and it will only improve over time as the world moves forward. But it is unfortunate that you are intolerant of religion, where I am open to atheism.

obsessive-compulsive? HAH. There are laws that are difficult to follow at times, but one forces oneself, recognizing that the system is only valuable if one is consistent. That isn’t an obsessive-compulsion, that is developing discipline.

I agree with the moderator (if that was a moderator), Theism/Atheism has turned into the new Nazism. It comes up in any discussion uninvited-- we need a God corollary to Godwin’s Law.