Okay, I was reading another topic and I got the idea to ask this question that’s been bothering me. Here’s the story (yes, there is a point to it…sort of). A friend of mine’s dad lives down the street from some Hasidic Jews. One day, he’s walking along and one of them opens the door, and asks him to come in and turn on the lights for them. It was the Sabbath, and they weren’t allowed to do any work (apparently, that includes turning on lights), and they’d forgotten to leave the lights on the night before. So, his dad complied, and flipped the switch. Then they got into a discussion about the whole “no work on the Sabbath” thing. They said that they made all meals in advance, laid out clothing ahead of time, and even got toilet paper off the roll and stacked up neat so they wouldn’t have to do that either (I swear I’m not making up the last part). So, I’m wondering…Where is the line drawn. I mean, making Kool-Aid is work, but pouring it isn’t? If flipping a light switch is work, then why isn’t opening a door? I’m not trying to insult anyone, but I’m really curious. I don’t get it.
I’m not Jewish, but I’ve read plenty of threads on this subject, at least enough to bring up the following points:
- Turning on lights is “work” because it makes (or at one time made) a spark, thus classifying the act as creating fire, which is work.
- Observant Jews can take advantage of “work” that a non-Jew does on the Sabbath (i.e. if your friend’s dad walked into the room and turned on the light for himself, that’s fine) but cannot ask someone to do it.
- A real Jew will be by eventually to correct any mistakes I’ve made, in the meantime, there is at least one other thread that’s going on that mentions this, if you can find it, that might help.
Your Official Cat Goddess since 10/20/99.
“I’m a god. I’m not the God–I don’t think.” --P.C.
Yes, I asked something similar in the “am I a Jew?” thread, but nobody answered. Now I’m leaving until Monday; I just know I’m gonna miss the answer.
This is all hearsay, but I heard the following description of what is allowed on the Sabbath:
If someone is trapped beneath rubble, people can clear enough rubble away to see if the person are still alive. If the person is dead, they must wait until the next day to bury the person. If the person is alive, life-threatening wounds may be treated, but no more rubble may be cleared than necessary. The person may not be moved unless their life is in danger. Basically, people may work to prevent the deterioration of the situation (i.e. death), but can not work to make the situation better.
Okay, kind of. Shomer Shabbas Jews aren’t supposed to ask gentiles to do work for them. If you have a way with words, you can sort of, you know, let on that you need something done. (“Wow, I really wish I had rememebered to turn this light off…”) but, well, it’s a fine line. I’m really shocked that the people in the OP would directly ask someone to turn a light off.
Hey, and I believe you on the toilet paper. I know people who use special liquid Shabbas toothpaste because you’re not supposed to SQUEEZE.
Don’t ask me. As you can see, I’m playing on the computer on Friday night.
~Harborina
“This is my sandbox. I’m not allowed to go in the deep end. That’s where I saw the leprechauns.”
All of the observant Jews are, of course gone from the board tonight, so I’ll step in on their behalf. The rumor that you heardRyan, is both false and malicious. The commandments place the highest value possible on human life, even going so far as to command sacraficing your own to save another (“Who says your blood is redder?”). There is ample precedent in rabbinical law to determine that saving a life far and away takes priority over refraining from work on Sabbath. Such descriptions of Jewish law as you describe, while possibly arising from honest misunderstanding (and I’m certain that’s why you posted it) are actually antisemitic, and draw on the worst images of Pharisaical tradition found in the New Testament. Modern Jews are NOT Pharises (though the rabbinical tradition is decended from them) and IMHO, Christians (of which I am one) are far more likely today to act like them (citing Biblical commandments legalistically and in opposition to the overriding commandmants of love and mercy) than any Jews I’ve ever met.
Sorry if I went a little overboard, there. I don’t want to get this transfered to GD, but since my Dad’s side of the family is Jewish, I’m pretty sensitive to these issues. 
Isn’t the OP also part of a fictional story? The way the “hero” of the tale was introduced to the Jewish family. Eventually the child used to stop by every Saturday and turn the lights on? Rings a bell but i can’t remember the name or the rest of the story.
Oh, I’m gonna keep using these #%@&* codes 'til I get 'em right.
Here is a good site discussing what exactly is forbidden on Shabbat and why. Scroll down to Shamor: To Observe.
I used to rock and roll all night and party every day. Then it was every other day. Now I’m lucky if I can find a half an hour a week in which to get funky.
Sounds to me like a Shabbes Goy (possible spelling error). My buddy Drory (a nice Jewish boy from Manhattan) related the term to me a while back. I guess there are Jewish folks who employ the services of a non-Jew (goy) during the Sabbath so they can get through the day, but not violate custom. It’s more of a convenience-like someone to push the button for the elevator, stuff like that.
-sb
They say the Lord loves drunks, fools and little children.
Two out of three ain’t bad.
Hi. I don’t remember who suggested it, but actually my little story in my OP was not fictional. It happened to my friend’s dad (no, it’s not an urban legend either, if I want I can get in touch with his dad firsthand to verify). Another post said that the Hasidic Jews wouldn’t be allowed to ask for help on the Sabbath, but that’s what they did in this case. I guess they bent the rules a bit?
Okay, good link. I think that clears up my question, along with the part about what is meant by “work”. Thanks. [Jeannie, there’s also a part about light switches]
Also from the above link:
It’s perhaps worth mentioning that “work” is the conventional (but poor) translation of melacha. A better (but still not very good) translation would be “creative work”.
Melacha is those 39 categories of activities that were conducted to build the Sanctuary in the wilderness. Those things not included are generally permitted (although, as I believe that *Bricker, many rabbinic prohibitions fall under the category of “building a fence around Torah”; i.e., forbidding those activities that might easily be confused with, or lead the doer into, forbidden actions (not, of course, limited to the laws of Shabbat).
The use of automobiles on Shabbat is not as clearcut as it might as first appear. In “Travel on the Sabbath: A statement unanimously adopted by the Committee on Jewish Law and Standards” (a Conservative responsum unanimously adopted by the CJLS in 1960), it is stated that
(I should make it clear at this point that the above quote is not from the responsum, but from another source that discusses it.)
It should also be noted that there exists a disagreement about whether electricity is a form of fire: most feel that it is,but some (validly) disagree. The use of actual, indisputable fire is prohibited.
It is often said that “anything is possible”. In fact, very few things are possible, and most of them have already happened.
Sorry, Jeannie, I didn’t think you were telling an UL, but were relating a real event. I know I have read about this in fiction, too. Just can’t recall the title or the rest of the story.
For the very traditional (like the Hasidim), the rabbis back in Talmudic times (say, 100 BC to 100 AD) set forth the definition of “work” that is prohibited on sabbath. From those prohibitions (I think there were 19, without going to look 'em up), all others were derived. So, making a fire was prohibited. The rabbis then ruled that using a fire that was already made, or keeping a fire going, was OK; just don’t start one.
Hence, with the electric lights (which the orthodox and hasidic consider to be a form of “fire”); it was OK to use the electricity if it was on, but they couldn’t turn it on.
Conservative Jews often take a more liberal interpretation.
And, by the way, since someone brought it up, ALL the rules are suspended if someone’s life is in danger. Saving a life is considered far more important than strict sabbath observance.
Regarding the phrase above about “Torah prohibition against kindling fire.” Isn’t actually the Talmud which interpreted kindling fire as work which violated the Torah injunction to keep the Sabbath holy?
No Monty. Actually lighting a fire is the ONLY example of work mentioned explicitly (Ex. 35:3) in the Bible (aside from gathering wood).
Zev Steinhardt
Jeanie,
Here’s the straight dope (apologies to Cecil):
-
The person should not have directly asked your father to turn on the lights. While directly asking a non-Jew to do work on Shabbos is wrong, if he does it on his own, one is not required to stop him. Therefore, you can comment “Oh, I left my oven on.” If he goes in and offers to turn it off for you, he can.
-
The definition of work comes from the work that was done in the Tabernacle. The reelvant verse is Lev 19:30 (“Keep my Sabbath and revere my Sanctuary.”) By the fact that these two seemingly unrelated items are thrown together in the same verse, the Rabbis have learned that the definition of what to do to keep the Shabbos comes from the Sanctuary. Since cooking was done in the Temple, therefore, cooking is forbidden on Shabbos. Since tearing was done in the Temple, it is forbidden on the Shabbos (hence the toilet paper. In my house, however, we use tissues.) Lights are work because putting on a light is akin to lighting a fire. Since this was done in the Temple, it is forbidden (besides the fact that there is an extra verse that forbids lighting fires). Opening a door does not violate any of these prohibitions. Neither does making Kool-Aid.
As for the poster who mentioned being trapped under rubble: when a human life is at stake, Shabbos rules go “out the window” so to say. If possible, of course, one should try to avoid breaking them. However, one can do so if necessary. Thus, you can pick up a phone and call an ambulance. You can turn on a light in your house to scare off a burglar (provided there is a clear and real danger of one being present and you’re not just “fooling yourself” as an excuse). You can swim, drive etc. if necessary. As an example, my daughter ran a very high fever (105+) on a Friday afternoon. We quickly took her to see the doctor before Shabbos. The doctor insisted that she return the next morning. Therefore, we quickly made arrangements (before Shabbos) with a car service to come pick my wife and daughter up on Saturday morning and take them back to the house afterwards. I ran over to the HQ of the car service and prepaid. When they didn’t show up (that’s another story) I PICKED UP THE PHONE and CALLED THEM to come pick them up.
Re: toothpaste. Toothpaste shouldn’t be used at all, to the best of my knowledge. There is a prohibition of smoothing (yep, you guessed it, done in the Temple). Maybe what you meant is liquid soap (which should be used rather than bar soap.)
Lastly, I should point out that all this applies to all Orthodox Jews, not just Hasidim.
Sorry for the length of the post, but I hope it answers some questions some of you were having.
Zev Steinhardt
It is perhaps worth noting that there is a very different approach in classic Judaism (under which I will lump Orthodox, Hasidism, and right-wing Conservative Jews) towards these rules than there is in Reform Judaism or Christianity.
So, please allow me to make gross generalizations.
Christianity is (by and large) not concerned with observance but with belief. Yes, I know, people were killed over minor points of theologic difference between Christian sects, but I’m watching from the 20,000 foot level. My understanding is that most Christians would say that BELIEF is sufficient for salvation, and that individual salvation is the goal of life. The Bible becomes a moral guide, a philosophic treatise, parables and statements of ethics. (And please, I don’t want to argue this, I want to make the opposing point.)
In contrast, classic Judaism is a legal system. The rules and regulations are set forth in the Torah and intepreted by rabbis through the Talmud and later rabbinic assemblies. These form a legal code; and the hair-splitting interpretations are identical to those used by lawyers in U.S. law courts: “Yeah, we know he committed the crime, but the cops didn’t have a search warrant so the evidence is inadmissable.” That’s very much in line with the thinking of classic Judaism: rulings that it’s OK to cook with a fire already started but it’s not OK to start a fire on the sabbath, for instance.
The rules and regulations apply only to Jews. The Biblical rules for non-Jews (discussed here in prior threads) are concerned with ethical conduct: not to kill or steal, for instance, as set forth to Noah.
The concern with detail of the religious law code does not ignore broad principles, of course. Akatsumi rightly noted that prohibited “work” on the sabbath is in fact “creative work.” This ties in neatly to what the sabbath is all about – that God stopped creating to rest.
Not much I can add to the answers above, except to say that I, too, have used the phone and called a car service on Shabbos…to take my wife, in labor, and myself to the hospital (and not a moment too soon! It was a girl, BTW). Shabbos violation for medical/emergency purposes is not even a “think-abouter”.
Chaim Mattis Keller
ckeller@kozmo.com
“Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks.”
– Douglas Adams’s Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective