My sister is Jewish. She will not use the telephone on Shabbat, and won’t really give me a reason why except that her husband doesn’t like it.
I have done a little research and understand the “production, transformation, or creation” prohibition. I also understand it is forbidden to handle money on Shabbat. Since the Torah has not strictly defined what “work” is forbidden, many scholars have designated which labours are not to be carried out then.
I can find nowhere that verbal communication with friends or family members is not allowed, except that possibly writing a letter may be a violation. If I call her (she is in Jerusalem) then she is not spending money. They do use the computer on Shabat, so it can’t be the mandate against transporting something from the home, as attenuated as that may be.
So…can anyone give me, a good little atheist girl, a reason that using the telephone violates Jewish laws on Shabbat?
Carina42 pretty much nailed it, though as you pointed out, what any random orthodox family does will vary. Clearly, using the computer makes no sense if they are not going to use the telephone.
Both my wife’s sisters are orthodox Jews and also will not use the phone on Shabbat. I’m sure they get around the computer issue because they use the logic that it’s already on going into Shabbat, hence the “fire” was already there, so there’s no problem. When there is a TV show either of my sisters-in-law want to watch on Saturday, they will leave the TV on the night before on the channel it need to be on, with the volume left low, and just leave it on all night from Friday at sunset to get around the Shabbat problem using this same logic.
Seems lame to me, especially since they violate the Shabbat laws in numerous other ways to conveniently fit their lifestyles, but that’s religion for you…
Well, that’s kind of my take too, though this isn’t the forum for debating it! OK, I can sort of understand the machine/tools/electricity theory. Vaguely, kinda. Though I still can’t see how using a telephone to talk to family is any part of creating the sanctuary. Since they use electricity, that theory is kind of blown too.
I would certainly have an easier time understanding this kind of tribal voodoo if it made some kind of logical sense, or was truly consistent with original Talmudic teachings and intent.
There are two technical issues with electricity - the whole fire thing mentioned above and the making/breaking of a circuit - one isn’t allowed to complete or to break up something on Shabbos. It’s not a question of using electricity, but of changing the status of an electrical circuit.
On top of that, there is an idea of Shabbos-appropriate activities. It’s fine (according to everyone) to leave the lights on on Shabbos so that you can see, because seeing, not stumbling into things, being able to read, etc., are all considered to be “within the spirit of the day”. While leaving the TV on on the correct channel is technically within the letter of the law, I recoil from it as being totally inappropriate. (So do all of the halachic authorities that I know of.)
Appropriateness is, to a certain extent, determined by individuals and what “feels right” for them. For example, I’m fine with having a VCR tape something for me on Shabbos that I watch after Shabbos, but I know that cmkeller feels uncomfortable with it.
My understanding is that the main element is that electricity is “fire” – and using the telphone means that little lights go on and off in the system.
It is permitted to use fire that is already going, just not to start fire. Thus, many modern Orthodox use timing devices (that were set before Shabbat begins) to turn on lights, TVs, etc. It was common, even way before TVs, to light one burner of a stove before Shabbat, and put a pot of something on it to slow cook from Friday late afternoon until Saturday lunch.’
It should be noted that this rule is supsended if a human life is at stake. Thus, most Orthodox doctors will take true emergency calls.
Some folks (both believers and non-believers) snort that this is all convenient legal hair-splitting to break the rules, and is thus somewhat hypocritical. Others argue that legal hair-splitting is what the Talmud (or any legalistic system) is all about. Part of this dispute is whether you think of the rules as spiritual in nature (follow the spirit of the law) or legal in nature (follow the letter of the law.)
Carina42, do they actually operate their computer on Shabbat, or do they merely leave it on, to accept faxes, for example?
If they merely leave the computer on, then I think they are being “truly consistent with original Talmudic teachings and intent.” But if not, then maybe you should ask them, instead of asking us. Maybe even show them this thread, and ask them to contribute!
The Straight Dope
Fighting Ignorance Since 1973 (It’s taking longer than we thought!)
Specific question about your use of the word many. Do you actually know of people who don’t use timers for lights? I’ve never heard of such a thing. I can understand not using them for television, but why lights?
GilaB and C K…thanks for pointing out the “spirit of the law” and doing what “feels right” position. I know many of us non-believers tend to have a hard time with the perceived inconsistency in following religious law.
I know my sister will write on the computer on Shabbat if it is not work related; I suppose it’s already turned on.
Not to change the course of this thread, but what brought this up: My sister was due to deliver her first baby on Friday; if she did not go into labour (no joke intended) they were going to induce, because it’s been a very difficult pregnancy. When I heard nothing from them I started to worry that she was in hospital having problems…I forgot about Shabat and called her three times, leaving “Are you all right, call me!!” messages. She called on Saturday morning, very angry that I had rung them late at night on Shabbat…they decided not to induce on Friday after all. So all is well, but I got snippy back, (not a good thing in dealing with a massively pregnant, hormone-addled little sister.)
So, Keeve, that is why right now isn’t a great time to discuss finer points of religious law with sis, and my big “Jewish Literacy” book wasn’t providing thorough answers!
Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, a major authority until he died in the mid-80’s, was opposed to the use of timers. (I can find the quote in his “Igros Moshe” if you want, but it’s at home and I’m not.) I think his reasoning was that if people would see that the appliance is on now, but was off before, people would wrongly think that the Sabbath had been violated.
He conceded that there was nothing intrinsically wrong with the timers, but he hoped that to avoid the appearance of impropriety, people would not use them. He also conceded that the use of timers for electric lights was already so common that this “appearance of impropriety” would apply only to other appliances, and not to lights.
I presume that he followed his own views on this matter, but I do not know of anyone else who refrains from using timers on appliances such as lights, fans, air conditioners, heaters, and such. (As others have pointed out, this does NOT apply to appliances such as televisions and radios, which have additional problems.)
I never knew that, because I never thought that there would be any question that people know that timers were used for Shabbos. Learn something new every day . . . I’ll look up the quote tonight myself.
As another side note, we (my wife and I) were living in Jerusalem during the Gulf War. The Israeli government set up a “silent” radio station that would only broadcast if there was a missle attack on Shabbos. You tuned the radio to the correct frequency before Shabbos, and the station went into “silent mode” when Shabbos started. If a missle attack happened, the frequency would activate.
Making or receiving calls on a telephone on Shabbos have a number of problems. Any lights on the source or destination phones or other phones on the line that are turned on or off might be considered lighting or putting out fire. Completing a circuit is a problem. When placing a call, causing a phone to ring might be considered playing a musical instrument (rabbically prohibitted).
Using a computer also has many problems. As was pointed out, a distinction might be made between operating a computer and allowing one to continue running (received emails, serving a web site, recieving faxes, etc.).
How sure are you that they operate a computer? Also, perhaps they let their young children, who do not yet know right from wrong, to operate the computer. Young children are not obligated to follow certain commandments such as Shabbos.
Also, you might distinguish between three categories of things people do on Shabbos. There are things universally permitted, things which qualified rabbis disagree on, and things which are universally prohibitted.
People sometimes do things even though they are prohibitted. We call this “sin”. No one is perfect. Perhaps they know they shouldn’t operate a computer, but do it anyway. That doesn’t mean that because they have broken one rule, they should break all rules. Thus, they may still properly refrain from operating a telephone on Shabbos.
A bit off topic, but what is the basis for the prohibition against mixing fibers? I used to know a jewish guy who told me that he could wear a wool jacket, or a silk jacket, but never a jacket whose material was a mix of wool and silk. Why?
[total curiosity no offence intended]Why?[/total curiosity no offence intended] Was there an original social reason for this? Eg like pork being unsafe to eat in Bible times?
The rules are more stringent for Shabbos than for many other commandments (the Bible specifically mentions “your sons and daughters”). Any child old enough to operate a computer must certainly be stopped from doing so.
C K Dexter Haven could you clarify your statement that “most Orthodox doctors will take true emergency calls”? Which ones won’t?