Who gets to decide who’s THE best, and on what grounds do they decide? Are you going to federally mandate that all valedictorians must be chosen based solely on GPA, which will be calculated thus-and-so? Or do you let the schools decide?
The reason I ask is because my high school reworked the rules for valedictorian selection the year I graduated, in order to have two. They could easily have made another slight change (or changed the selection criteria entirely) and selected the person they wanted to be valedictorian, rather than the person who technically had the highest GPA. Instead, they chose to have a “joint valedictorian”. If they had gone they other route instead, I would have had no real objection, because in this particular instance I understood and agreed with their reasoning.
However, if you allow schools to do an end-run around the “no prayer at official government/school events” by letting valedictorians say anything “they” want with no accountability, then you’re going to have some schools reworking the rules for choosing valedictorians in order to get the religious messages they want preached.
The government’s action must have a legitimate secular purpose;
The government’s action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion; and
The government’s action must not result in an “excessive entanglement” of the government and religion.
First, it’s highly questionable whether this is “government action” in the first place. But even if it is, I think it passes the Lemon Test easily. If the student attempted to prosyletize, then we’re treading on thin ice wrt the Lemon Test. But simply invoking a person deity wrt to one’s own accopmlishments-- I don’t see the issue.
The only thing I remember about my college valedictorian is that her speech was boring and I could’ve done a lot better if only I’d, y’know, studied or something.
Isn’t this an issue of somewhat overinflated importance? It’s like clowns at kids’ birthday parties; the kids don’t care but the parents think they do.
So what? A history teacher decides that as part of a current events exercise, the class will listen the a State of the Union address from a US president. Must any references to God be bleeped out?
Do you have a copy of the student’s intended speech? Because I haven’t seen one. Since the school had seen one, I’m willing to believe that they had a better idea than I do of what she was planning to say, and whether or not her speech crossed the line into prosyletization. What’s happened to your standard stance of “we can’t possibly judge this case because we don’t have all the facts and information”?
Well, at least the world as back on its axis and you and I are on diferrent sides again. Whew.
Are you of the mind that whatever she says is being tactily endorsed by the school? Nonsense. For example, would you ban any of the examples below? If not, do you maintain that because you wouldn’t ban them that Principal Dio is therefore endorsinig those views?
“Take it from me, taliking to your cat for an hour every night will give you strength.”
"Be true to yourself. Don’t listen to your parents, or your teachers. You know what’s best for you.
“Man, I really didn’t expect to be up here. I know I have the highest GPA, but I just do good on tests. I had a great time, partying the whole time and barely studied. So, take it from me, have a good time and everything else will fall into place. Party at my house at seven.”
Just because those two things might share a common denominator, that hardly makes them equivalent. I’m pretty sure you know this. That aside, the two things are worlds apart.
Nope. They are making her speech part of the ceremony. What she says is up to her. They are supposed to be HER thoughts. THAT is the honor.
Maybe. But I just don’t want to go back to agreeing with you.
Well, in that part I was speaking about the general issue, not this particular case. You’ll note that I also posted:
If it wasn’t clear, let me state that I see no reason a school cannot, as it’s own policy, put religion as a topic that must be left out of such speeches.
BTW, I’ve never heard of a school that required students to attend a graduation ceremony in order to receive a diploma. Do you have a cite for that claim?
No one is talking about prayer. We’re talking about a speech, allowing someone to express the actual views she holds. A prayer would not/should not be allowed by a valedictorian as it is not on point. Please see my posts above.
Regarding dual valedictorians. Dumb fucking idea. Another PC attempt to protect children from the real world. That said, if the school wants to have two of them, fine. As long as it is stated when the year begins.
Okay, that’s a different argument. Let’s concentrate on this first. Do you agree, based on the post you replied to, that it is NOT the school endorsing the statement, but only the individual?
This is just a tad sophist. No, they don’t have to attend the ceremony to get their diploma (I didn’t go to mine), but that doesn’t mean that those who do choose to go to the ceremony should have to listen to religious speech as a condition of going.
No. I think the student is speaking as an agent of the school. I also think that the school has an obligation to control the ceremonial aspects of the proceedings so as to avoid any endorsements of religion.
Actually, I think it goes beyond even this. Does the school have the right to control what is and isn’t broadcast over their PA system during a school sponsored event? If the Val was invited to give a <5 minute speech about her experiences(reviewed and approved) and began reading the telephone book instead, would the school have the right to turn off the microphone and ask her to step down? How about after the 30th minute?
I say they do. Even if the speech isn’t religious, or vulgar, or disruptive, it’s the school’s event, and they have the right to tell a speaker that their time is done. All speakers are up there by invitation, on the expectation that you will follow the ground rules they setup. I don’t think it’s a violation of your constitutional rights to be invited to speak under a set of conditions.
I wish we had a poll asking this question to students: If the valedictorian makes a reference to God in his/her speech, do you see that as an endorsement of religion by the school?
I think an overwhelming number of students would either say “no” or “I dunno, I’ll be listening to my iPod during the speech anyway”.
You seem to have some bizarre theory that there is some sort of code of chivalious school behavior. I don’t think the school is a night at your roundtable. They arranged the event and invited the speakers. Why can’t they control the content of the event, including having a veto on anything any speakers say?
Again, the issue rests on whether this was really an open forum in which case the school violated her rights, or whether it was concieved as a school controlled event, in which case, the obstruction of rights is far less obvious.
You pretending there is some magical code of conduct to a proper valedictorian process doesn’t clarify anything useful in regards to that.
