Validating paedophilia in society.

[Aankh]

@CarnalK

You are interchanging biological basis and genetic basis, the medical world does not equate them.

You are fully correct in this. My use of terminology has indeed been loose. I am arguing from a biological standpoint.
I believe this does not change the argument that having paedophilic desires (not acting on them) might not be something wholly controllable by the person in question.

However, you seem to jump over my point that was on topic: that the recidivism for child sexual assault is not “extremely high” but rather low.

Actually, I haven’t mentioned recidivism at all since my OP because I’ve completely forgotten what my logic was when I brought it up initially. I did mention this in one of my previous posts responding to you. Incidentally, could you let me know your reference source for this bit of information? I was digging around and I found this study by Hanson (2002), where a sample size of almost 5000 people was used. The findings were -

Rapists were younger than child molesters, and the recidivism risk of rapists steadily decreased with age. In contrast, extrafamilial child molesters showed relatively little reduction in recidivism risk until after the age of 50. The recidivism rate of intrafamilial child molesters was generally low (less than 10%), except for the intrafamilial offenders in the 18- to 24-year-old age group, whose recidivism risk was comparable to that of rapists and extrafamilial child molesters.

Also, Rice and Harris (1997) -

Survival analyses showed that child molesters exhibited higher risk of sexual recidivism than rapists or offenders against both children and adults

And there are a couple others in the same vein too.

There also seems to be a fair amount of literature out there that discusses the failure of various therapy regimens at curing paedophilia. Behavioural therapy doesn’t seem to work (Rice, Quinsey, harris, 1991). Shanahan and Donato (2001) in their review of the literature suggest that cognitive programs reduce recidivism rates by 2 to 14% (which, though worthy from the point of view of potential victims, is still pretty low). I have not found data about therapy programs that use a psychodynamic perspective. Facts about chemical castration and the like are easily available on google, and this technique seems to target overall sexual desire rather than the paedophilic desires specifically.

What I’m saying here is, in general, therapy regimens that have had great success with other disorders don’t seem to be working here, even accouting for the plasticity of things like cognitive behavioural therapy and their ilk. If this is the case, the problem must go deeper, and this is supported by all the researchers who are currently searching for the biological basis (I didn’t say genetic this time :)) to paedophilia.

Hence, should we eventually identify that factor A in the brain is causing people to have paedophilic urges, should they be blamed? Will we, as a society, ever be able to empathise with this group of people who just can’t help thinking the way they think? As AlbertJ acknowledges that legalities aside, the extreme social stigma attached to child molestation is definitely a deterrent for him.

one would probably have to face some pretty harsh vigilante justice–at worst a lynch mob, at best some girl’s daddy with a shotgun. So, even if I could ignore the issues of morality and reality-vs.-fantasy, I don’t believe I’d do it.

So, as a matter of social control, is it justifiable to treat paedophiles as the devil incarnate?

And what views to dopers have on the point that was raised earlier about controlling even your fantasies? Is this necessary? Is the fact that the person is not now and will never cause harm to a child not enough?

[CarnalK]

Well, we probably agree that there is something physically compelling people who actually go out and rape children. I only wanted the terms a little clearer which you answered.

My source for the recidivism rates were Statistics Canada and US Department of Justice statistics. It was a bit of effort so if you are interested I would appreciate you using your magical membership powers and search on my name and “recidivism” in GD or BBQ (hopefully I spelled it right in the previous thread) From what I remember the highest risk group were unmarried molestors who preyed on non-family which agrees with your first quote but I don’t believe to be true for the majority of pedophiles.

While you may have dropped recidivism since mentioning it in the OP it seems an important point in deciding how society deals with this problem. Personally the choice between vilification and pity is too stark. Trying to actually manage the problem at hand does not require these emotions. Now live long and prosper.

[opacis_magi]

People’s loss of faith in other people is almost alarming here.

I mean, to molest a child takes a big degree of moral and mental decay to do.
A mere sexual attraction to children will not throw a persons morals and empathy for others out the window.
The child molestors probably have had a difficult upbringing, and have lost “it”, mentally and morally.

A pedophile on the other hand…
I went to therapy for awhile, and it seems people are alot more diverse when it comes to sexuality than one would think.
Straight people can have homosexual emotions and still be straight, homosexuals can have pedophilic emotions, just like a straight person.

Your sexuality is not written in stone, nor is it unchangeable.
(I’m not saying homosexuals have a choice, i’m just saying it’s a bit more “dynamic” than people assume).

I see pedohpilia as more of a fetish than its own sexuality, like homosexuality.
I’m kind of like Albert J really, although kids do not attract me as much.
Young teenagers and teens generally do.
Taking society into account, I think there are alot of men who like teenagers especially. I think there’s alot of hypocricy going around too, and people refusing to deal with their emotions.

How this ties in then, I think society needs some serious counceling.

[epepke]

First you have to define paedophilia. Here are some possible definitions:

1. The Psychiatric Definition: sexual attraction to pre-pubescent individuals. Not that the age of puberty has gone way down over the 20th century. I hit puberty around 10 in the early 1970’s. At that time, it was highly unusual, but it’s fairly common now.

2. The Legal Definition: sexual attraction to anyone under the age of 18.

3. The Father’s Definition: only for daughters, any sexual attraction of any kind in any context whatsoever.

4. The Mother’s Definition: also only for daughters, any sexual attraction to someone who makes less than $100,000 per year.

5. The PBS version: sexual attraction to a younger woman, which I got from a bit on PBS about how when J.D. Salinger hung out with a woman in her twenties about how she was a “child.”

OK, so some of these are silly, but in American culture the distinction between children and adults has been blurred beyond all possible recognition. Anorexic 14-year-olds are used to sell clothes in every women’s magazine, a heavily made-up Jon Bonet greets us from the front pages of tabloids every other week, while at the same time many people have the idea that adolescence isn’t over until 25 or so, and people are encouraged to remain puerile into their 30s. We have the concept of “teenage sex” and “teenage pregnancy” in spite of the fact that, just by ages, 2/7 of all teenagers are legally adults (18 and 19).

[istara]

A man who is sexually attracted to a 14-year-old with a “big rack” is NOT a paedophile. He is legally-speaking a paedophile if he acts on it.

Morally/biologically speaking: no man who finds a pair of full breasts attractive is a paedophile - full breasts are a sign of sexual maturity to show that a female is ripe for mating. However as we know, physical maturity does not equal mental maturity: hence, age of consent laws.

The man is a paedophile if he finds the 14-year-old’s chest attract because it is FLAT - ie immature. If he likes her body because it is straight, and hipless, and childlike - immature - then he is a paedophile.

But being an active paedophile - that is something else. A man who rapes women is technically a heterosexual - but we would never consider that normal, acceptable heterosexual behaviour. Rape fantasy - fine. The actual deed? That’s where the line is crossed.