Vampires, biologic possibility?

Great Debates
1

Ok I was reading some things that suggest Vampires could be a possibility.

First, let me define what I want other people’s expertise here to reveal.

Vampire = blood sucking immortal who is nocturnal.

That’s it. None of the “super powers” or the “mind control” or the “undeadness” or the “afraid of crosses garlic blah blah” or the “explodes in the sun”.

Just the basics.

Is it possible, for an organism to have adapted that feeds only on Blood, whose genetic make-up is such that it will not die of old age, and is a nocturnal animal.

Furthermore, is it possible that this organism can transmit its condition as a disease, from one host to another. Such as drinking the Blood of a Vampire makes you a vampire by inserting the vampiric DNA into your own causing your body to change in slight ways, such as being immortal (something to do with telemeres primarily?).

The later, is already somewhat theorized is it not? That is “Gene Therapy” where a harmless virus is used to insert DNA into a person that will correct a bad genetic trait such as a genetic disorder. Parkinsin’s disease for instance?

So that’s all, I’m not a biologist, so if there’s anyone out there who’s pretty well versed in biology I’m wondering if it is possible to contract from another via DNA insertion (I forget the term when a virus puts its DNA permanently into its host), the conditions that would make you survive from eating or consuming only Blood, and it would alter your calpiers cycle (is that the right term?) such that you would become a nocturnal creature.

And then of course the side effect that would be Immortality, scientists see no reason why creatures need to die, though they are programmed to genetically (I believe they think the theoretical limits of the human body is 120-150 years).

So…thoughts about this?

Also, do you think that such a condition of Vampirism does exist today? That there are indeed “Immortals” among us?

2

Vampire bats exist, so there’s an example of a mammilian creature which is nocturnal and lives off blood. A human’s digestive system wouldn’t do well on a diet of nothing but blood; I’m not certain how much alteration you’d need to survive on a vampiric diet.

Immortality? IIRC there are some species of fish and/or reptiles which don’t actually seem to ever die of old age - they just go on living and growing until they get eaten or die of illness or accident. It would probably be possible to genetically engineer a human or human-like creature that never suffered from old age, provided that we understood the genetic and biological causes of old age, were really good at genetic engineering, and willing to freely play god with our own genetics. Don’t expect it to happen anytime soon.

Passing it on to the victims? There’s the weakest part. We’re talking about making fundamental genetic alterations to every cell in the victim’s body, making major changes to the workings of the digestive tract, and structural changes to the eyes, teeth, and other parts of the body to get the full effect. While it might be possible to use some sort of retrovirus to deliver a genetic package to the victim, that won’t help much when it comes to making physical alterations to tissue which has already matured. The retroviral DNA is going to have to somehow perform some kind of metamorphosis, taking apart existing structures and building new ones, while somehow keeping the victim alive through the process. This is not a trivial task. I suspect that even if it could be made to work you’d have a high mortality rate.

Do I believe this already exists, and vampires walk among us? No.

3

Are you reading Brian Stableford’s Empire of Fear? If not, I recommend it; it’s a pretty fun read.

No, of course vampires don’t actually exist, as your last question goes. Or, rather, there’s no more evidence that they exist than that dragons, unicorns, or banshees exist, or that monkeys with tentacular fingers who subsist solely on the nectar of the sunflower exist. There’s no reason to believe in them.

You ask if such a creature could “adapt.” Do you mean “evolve”? If so, ask yourself what this creature would look like in its infant stage. I’m assuming you’re talking about a mammalian creature, right, since it would presumably look like a human; do female vampires have mammary glands? If so, at what point would the infant vampire switch from milk to blood?

Also, consider that evolutionarily, there would have to be an advantage to this blood-drinking habit that doesn’t exist for the non-blood-drinking form. I’m at a loss to imagine how you’d evolve such a specialized diet: it’s very wasteful, inasmuch as you’d have to go to the trouble of killing prey but would only be able to consume a small quantity of the prey’s calories and nutrients.

Stableford’s approach is more plausible – I won’t describe it here, because discovering the nature of vampirism is the focus of the book. But even that method runs into some problems both with natural selection and with conservation of energy.

Daniel

4

I’m a moderator for a vampire message board (don’t ask, long story :slight_smile: ) and the answer to some of your questions are: No, vampires do not exist. Some people call themselves HLV, but in reality they are no different then you or I-at least not physically.

I’d say the possibility for immortal vampires existing is all but impossible; immortality is pretty much impossible. In addition, blood doesn’t provide enough nutrients for a human to survive-it’s also inemic (sp?), IIRC.

5

Vampire bats exist, so there’s an example of a mammilian creature which is nocturnal and lives off blood. A human’s digestive system wouldn’t do well on a diet of nothing but blood; I’m not certain how much alteration you’d need to survive on a vampiric diet.

The Masai Tribe in Africa lives off nothing but Cow’s blood and Cow’s milk. So the diet is not much of an alteration.

By biologic possibility I suppose mean that aside from the following side effects: Immortality, Blood-diet, Nocturnality (possibly even Extreme Photosensitivity and thus death if exposed to Sun Light); they would be quite human. You could kill them by shooting them too many times and so forth.

You ask if such a creature could “adapt.” Do you mean “evolve”? If so, ask yourself what this creature would look like in its infant stage. I’m assuming you’re talking about a mammalian creature, right, since it would presumably look like a human; do female vampires have mammary glands? If so, at what point would the infant vampire switch from milk to blood?

Actually in this sense I would consider that Vampires bred by “Spreading a Disease” not by reproducing. A disease of the blood that alters the human physiology to that of a Vampire’s (by the above definition not the supernatural being).

I’d say the possibility for immortal vampires existing is all but impossible; immortality is pretty much impossible. In addition, blood doesn’t provide enough nutrients for a human to survive-it’s also inemic (sp?), IIRC.

Read more about the Masai, their staple diet is Blood. They do not eat anything else and they sometimes enrich it with milk.

The idea of blood-drinking I think is the most probable aspect of the Vampire. Followed by the extrem photosensitivity (I forget the name of the condition.) The condition is such that a child born today needs to wear specific protective clothing (much like a space suit) that sheilds him from ultra-violet light because his skin can not handle it and if he is exposed to it for too long (sometimes just a matter of minutes) he will die. Anyone know of which condition I’m talking about?

The improbable aspect of a Vampire is Immortality.

However extreme longevity is the minimal requirement, anything that could survive for more than 500 years would be to a Human’s eyes “Immortal” unless the human witnessed the creature’s death to old age.

Also I think that site you gave me doesn’t show anything about Immortality.

I know for a fact that scientists are certain they can make humans “immortal” through genetic engineering as they discover the primary cause of age is simple, it is pre-programmed.

Get rid of the death programming in our genes and we would not die from old age except in the fact that inefficiencies over a long time would possibly cause malfunctions that would lead to death.

But since we are genetically capable of living to 150, there is no reason we should die any time soon after that should we remove the restriction. So the Immortality aspect is only unreasonable in the sense of forced death, that is all the extremes you have to go to to kill a Super Natural Vampire.

But the type of Vampire I’m questioning to me seems very reasonable…so I’m wondering if from a biological standpoint there is some flaw in the idea…such as it would not be transmitable by a “virus” or fluid transfer (drinking blood of another Vampire) because while Gene-therapy is a possibility it just wouldn’t work naturally on such a scale…stuff such as that.

6

Nocturnality and blood-diet are no big deal, save for a few problems with possible vitamin deficiencies (easily remedied by some WalMart supplements).

As for immortatilty, well, sperm and ova are essentially immortal cells and the hyrda is a simple but enormously long-lived organism, so it is surely not impossible.

7

More simple living beings have better chances of regeneration and chances of immortality ? I guess the humanoid structure is too carnivorous to survive off only blood.

Some spiritists say “vampires” are spirits that suck off life energy of people… so not physical beings.

8

Actually, that is incorrect. The Masai tribe lives on meat and milk. Cow blood is added to the milk if there is not enough milk.
http://teacherlink.ed.usu.edu/tlresources/units/byrnes-africa/meland/

http://www.shoortravel.com/maratribe.html

9

There are no immortal vertebrates. Most exceptionally long-lived vertebrates have a primarily or exclusively plant matter diet.

Make of that what you will.

10

Thanks, who_me. My bullshit detector was going off like a siren, but the web is full of contradictory information on the Masai diet. Some places claim they live off blood and milk only; some places claim they drink the blood-and-milk mixture only on ceremonial occasions; some places claim they mix the blood with urine to ferment; some places claim they drink the blood separately. Milk and blood are, of course, not sufficient foodstuffs for humans to live off of. Although the Masai are not, traditionally, agriculturalists, I strongly suspect they eat some plant products in their diet: human digestive systems don’t work so well without fiber, and there are other nutrients that are difficult to get from ruminants.

Daniel

11

I had an old relative by marriage who was born and raised in Transylvania. No, really. I used to pester him about this stuff, and he wouldn’t talk about it, until one night when he was good and drunk. I relate to you his testimony without judgement.

He believed they existed, all of his people did. But drinking blood didn’t enter into the equation, it was more along the lines of draining “life energy”. Signs of vampirism were mostly like unusually lethargic children and other evil omens. According to him, vampires followed the line of close relation, that is, a vampire fed first on those people closest to him in life.

A vampire did not physically leave the burial spot, the “spirit” left the ground and drained energy from the living in order to maintain the corpse. Now, this “spirit” is not the “soul”, which is held to have departed for judgement, but some sort of animal spirit without intelligence or conscience. The departed was not held responsible, vampirism could happen to anyone, evil or good.

He told about one instance where a woman had been buried and the signs of vampirism began to occur. These signs went on for about three weeks before the local priest was convinced and agreed to participate. The casket was exhumed, and the stake driven and the garlic, etc. According to him, the corpse was still “fresh”, had not deteriorated in any noticeable way, and bled when the stake was applied. Afterward, normal Christian rites of burial were performed, and the casket was returned. Everything returned to normal.

That’s the story as I heard it.

12

I actually had a Masai classmate in college, and they most assuredly do not live off only blood and milk. AFAIK they have always eaten beef; my classmate sometimes complained that you couldn’t get such good beef in America. The Masai have begun to farm in the past decade or so, and even before that I believe they gathered fruits, etc. They don’t eat uncooked vegetables (my classmate viewed the salad bar with the much same suspicion that many Westerners feel towards sashimi), but they will eat cooked ones.

13

Of course the whole vampirism thing is possible! There even used to be a federal agency tasked with combatting the undead. Of course the agency is now defunct but some former members maintain a historical website that is very cool:

Federal Vampire and Zombie Agency

Can you just imagine how dangerous new agents might be to their own chain of command?

Bureaucrat the Bossman: Here is your firearm; careful its loaded. Now, I want you to get out there and kill all the undead you can find. Wait! Don’t point that thing at me! Noooooooooo . . .

Must have been hard to find middle management, no?

But frankly, this could only be a spoof because its likely that were any such agency to be even mildly effective, most of Washington DC would have long ago been leveled.

For some actual scientific info on the topic, you could take this course:

Infectious Disease: Fact and Fiction

cj

14

http://www.namibweb.com/masaiinfo.htm

And typing in “Masai Traditional Diet” reveals nothing but webpages that support the above one.

I know nothing of today Masai diet except in a National Geographic I saw that they still drank the blood and milk as their ancestors did. But whether or not they are now more inclusive of other foods is pretty pointless, back as early as the late 1800s the Masai were on a diet of only Blood and Milk and no Plants material.

But the real issue to be argued is the issue of Immortality.

Is it wishful thinking of geneticists that any being can be made to live for incredible lengths of time (any mammal that is). Or is it a very plausible fact.

And if so, then is it probable that there are Vampires alive, walking this earth, who fit the conditions of the myth and do not die of old age? This is not to say they will not die if you cut off their head, but that they are much more resilient to death than ordinary humans.

I want the biological aspects of that addressed more than that of blood drinking or night-walking and so forth…

15

You’re almost certainly wrong: humans don’t get proper nutrition off of that diet. More likely someone visited the Masai and misunderstood a ritual they saw, starting a big old rumor in the US and Europe about those crazy Africans. I typed in “Masai diet,” as I said, and found numerous conflicting sites, including the one you mention above.

Daniel

16

I would guess the answer to that to be…

No.

Vampires, as in the Dracula myth, do not exist. Why would vampirism have anything to do with immortality? Except in the movies, there is no link between them at all. Drinking blood is drinking blood, it won’t make someone live any longer and in the case of your Masai is thought to lessen their life expectancy.

http://www.laubach.org/WIL/Global/hellen.html

This site does not mention the milk, but does mention the meat.

17

Well I don’t think that the National Geographic is prone to post rampantly wrong rumours. But I would think drinking blood would be a cause of premature death.

Which leads to the latest post, yes drinking blood probably has nothing to do with immortality.

The question is not that it does…but that could these unrelated characteristics (the need to feed on blood, light is harmful, and immortality) be combined in one body?

And is that even physiologically possible? Are there problems with immortality I’m not thinking of? Or indeed could there be someone whose genetics allow them to live forever? And spread it as a disease?

That disease being those symptoms and such.

18

Physiologically possible? Who knows? Why would something like that evolve? I can’t think of any deficiencies that a disease could cause that could be remedied by drinking blood. As for light being harmful, I believe that several conditions can cause a person to be sensitive to light, but they won’t turn to dust in the rising sun.

Immortality may be possible. But it would take a lot of genetic tinkering to make an immortal human, if it’s possible at all.

19

The Masai, like most nomadic pastoralists, do make milk and blood a great deal of their diet. Colonial officers in the 1890’s thought that they only ate agricultural products due to drought conditions. This view held sway for many years, and the Masai were always chararcterized by colonial anthropologists (even in ethnographies as recent as the 1960’s) as being a warlike society that existed on blood, milk and little else." However, they don’t subsist only on a diet of milk and blood. If that was all they ate, they’d be dead of scurvy in a few weeks. The Masai traditionally lived in a symbiotic relationship with the hunter-gatherers and agriculturalists of their region for dietary supplements and trade. Land encroachments of the 1970’s that disrupted this symbiotic relationship resulted in serious nutritional problems among the Masai.

20

Slight Hijack

Saw Nature last week on TPT television. They showed these Mockingbirds of Espinoza that had evolved to become vampires due to the lack of fresh water on their own native islands. They started off by feeding on unguarded eggs. But now have learned to pick at existing wounds and scabs on other birds solely for the purpose of drinking their blood. They further speculated that the Mockingbirds could eventually graduate to causing the wounds in the future.