I’ve recently been reading a lot about biodiesel fuel. It seems like a really interesting alternative, especially given the current volatility of the oil market. I have a car that runs on unleaded fuel, so I’m not able to try it. Its propenents claim good vehicle performance, cleaner emissions, a higher level of engine cleaning, and a cost of about 50 cents per gallon for a mixture of used vegetable oil, ethanol, and lye. My question is: if this is such a good alternative to fuel, why don’t we see more people using it? Granted, most cars are not diesel engines, but it seems like that would start to change if this were really such a good idea. And plenty of trucks and larger engines use diesel. So why hasn’t this caught on, if we’ve known about it since the early 20th century? What’s the catch?
I’ve heard of a Diesel in a truck that somebody set up to run on fry grease.
Remember the Chrysler turbine cars? They’d run on anything from salad oil to jet fuel. I want one!
>> if this is such a good alternative to fuel, why don’t we see more people using it?
Because it is not such a good alternative?
Biofuels are a lousy alternative because their production results in a net loss of energy (you put in more energy than you get out). They are just a (not so hidden) subsidy for farmers. Add to that the complication of adapting the engines and you get the picture.
I’m not sure that man must put in more energy then we can extract. Biofuels (Biomass fuels and I know them) can range from alchol to campfire wood. the energy input is mostly from the sun. The reason we don’t use more of this fuel is that the land requirements are too large.
As for running your car on used cooking oil - it’s been done and it’s cheap but how much used cooking oil is there to go around? If such a car was put into comercial production it would be impossible to find fuel.
k2dave, the OP is talking about running an internal combustion engine. If you can invent one that will run on campfire wood, you definitely may have something worth making.
I guess you could try running a steam engine…
I have seen it reported more than once that biofuels like alcohol and vegetable oils cost more energy to produce than they yield. This might make sense if used for human consumption but not as fuel for cars.
The oil normally used to make biodiesel on a small scale would otherwise go to waste. It usually can be had from restaurants for free (in fact, restaurants normally have to pay a waste disposal company to haul it away.) But if a large percentage of vehicles ran on it, there would not be enough waste vegetable oil to meet demand, and unused vegetable oil would need to be used. On the Chicago commodity markets, soybean oil is $0.14/lb., or about $1.05 per gallon . Add to that the cost of the lye and other costs of production and transportation. If it were produced commercially and sold at gas stations, the transportation fuel taxes would have to be charged. (Technically, people who makes his own biodiesel at home is supposed to pay these taxes, but in practice they almost never do.) I don’t have the exact figures handy, but state and federal taxes would probably add about $0.50 per gallon. So you can see that it wouldn’t be much cheaper than conventional diesel at the pump. (But the price may be offset slightly because the byproduct, glycerin, can be sold.)
Biodiesel is already being sold in Europe and Hawaii, sometimes in a mixture with conventional diesel fuel, because it burns cleaner, does not increase CO[sub]2[/sub] emissions, increases the cetane rating, and offers superior lubrication qualities. See, for example http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/cc/ccfsbf.html
On a small scale (do-it-yourself), it’s a great idea, as far as I can tell (but I’ve never tried it). I don’t think any major adjustment of the diesel engine is required to run biodiesel. It can be used in vehicles, oil burners, and electric generators. You can travel cross-country too. Just stop at a restaurant instead of a gas station and mix up your fuel (but it takes a few hours instead of a few minutes).
Biodiesel made from fresh vegetable oil is apparently even more expensive than I would have expected. According to http://www.nafa.org/public/altfueltype.html#F
But they also say
bibliophage has it right - one well publicized biodiesel experiment travelled cross country bumming used french-fry oil from restaurants. But start thinking about how much of the stuff would be required if it were to be used on a commercial scale.
In the long run, I would see hydrogen as the viable alternative fuel. There are plenty of problems to be worked out, but they strike me as tractable. Note that I said in the long run, however. One of the problems to be worked out is a brand-new distribution system, and that won’t happen unless the economics shift drastically.
I’m cutious, why the lye?
actually , I’m curious, not cutious. Sorry
Well, my understanding is that the lye chemically reacts with the oil to extract whatever part of the oil is not wanted, the byproduct resulting is apparently some kind of soap. The end-product biodiesel is much thinner than oil, with a flashpoint of over 200 degrees.
sailor said:
“Biofuels are a lousy alternative because their production results in a net loss of energy (you put in more energy than you get out).”
…but I thought that was a characteristic of all internal combustion engines–that they’re all incredibly wasteful, the majority of energy being lost as heat? Is biodiesel really so much more inefficient? If so, do you know by how much of a margin?
And I understand that if the world had to rely on this kind of fuel tomorrow we’d have desperate shortages. It seems like if we moved in that direction, though, we could find a way to both increase production and refine the process of making the fuel to the point where supply could meet demand. Even as a supplement to conventional fuel. Maybe not; I don’t know (that’s why I’m asking).
But just looking at it in a larger sense: if people can run cars on fuel made out of cooking oil, then surely there’s some better way than mining petroleum and fossil fuels that will eventually run out and polluting the atmosphere. While it burns me (har!) to think about paying more for fuel just because some countries decided to cut production, I would gladly pay more per gallon for a fuel that I knew was renewable and far less polluting to the environment. Gladly. I think the majority of people would, if it were presented in a way that made sense. Environmentalists (particularly in Europe) talk about keeping petrol prices high for the specific purpose of encouraging conservation. It just seems like if people are really running cars on this kind of fuel, even if that’s not the solution, then there has to be a better way.
I’m interested in all biofuels. No one has mentioned the possibilities of the price going down when vegetable oil is used. Supply and demand.The demand would be high to start but with modern methods of extraction and new technology the price may come down. There has to be a serious demand before anyone begins to seriously look at improving production.
Maybe there is a better vegetable oil than soy or canola to use for fuel. We have only heard, to my knowledge, of existing edible oils used for fuel. Might be a new fuel revolution to be found.
Sequent, producing the amount of vegetable oil required to drive your car 100 miles requires more energy (in the form of fuel, fertilizer etc.) than you get out of the process. In other words, take the fuel required to do it and you can drive 200 miles with it. Now put it into this process and you get out enough vegetable oil to drive 100 miles. You would be better off using the mineral oil directly to fuel your car.
People have this mistaken notion that solar energy is free. Solar energy is free in the same sense oil is free. It is the cost of transforming it into a usable form that we pay for and, for now, transforming solar energy is more expensive.
Even solar panels for heating water, which are probably the most efficient means of using solar energy, are not competitive with gas. I know because my home has them.
Biodiesel would be nothing but a huge subsidy for farmers. It is a waste of precious mineral oil which can better be used to power vehicles.
Sailor:
I’ve read your comments and agree with you 100%.
Folks, alcohol by definition is not a fuel. For that matter, neither is cooking oil, corn oil, etc. A fuel must yield a NET increase in energy. Unfortunately, few things fit this definition.
Example: Let’s say a farmer puts 10 gallons of gasoline in his tractor. Using this tractor, he is able to plant and harvest enough corn to yield 1 gallon of alcohol. Someone then gets the bright idea of using the 1 gallon of alcohol in an engine and proclaims, “I have invented a clean-burning engine!!”
Get the picture?
What is the cost of refining one gallon of gasoline???
Please use the same parameters you use to disclaim biofuels.
Please keep in mind that gasoline was at first a byproduct of the refining process.
Am I to suppose that you are using crafterman’s post to answer mine,Sequent.
If so please factor into the equation the entire cost of the Gulf war.We protected a country that would not be there if it were not for crude oil.
I asked you to use the same parameters.
I have not seen any claim by the US government that they were going to defend Brazil because of its soy bean potential.
Hidden cost are not so easy to see.
*Originally posted by bibliophage *
But they also say
In a trial in Australia, 20% ethanol was added to diesel and tested in a range of medium to heavy transport vehicles (without modifications) and replicated these results, which is not suprising. However, the interesting thing was that the drivers were almost unaminously opposed to the blended fuel on the premise that “pulling power”, presumably torque was reduced.
When the researchers demonstrated that this was not the case, the drivers were unconvinced. Their collective view was that if the truck wasn’t blowing copious quantities of black smoke going up hill, it wasn’t working hard enough.
Trucks using the blended fuel were producing the same torque, at better fuel efficiency and were still burning (relatively) clean!
>> What is the cost of refining one gallon of gasoline???
justwannano, I dunno and I dontcare as it is irrelevant. Whatever it costs, if I have to use two gallons of gasoline plus other stuff, to produce a gallon of biofuel, I don’t think the biofuel can be cheaper than the gasoline used to produce it. Do we have to do the math?
>> Please keep in mind that gasoline was at first a byproduct of the refining process
I believe this is a) not true, and b) totally irrelevant.
Can you demonstrate a) that it is true and b) that it is relevant?
Ah, but the beauty of it that you wouldn’t use two gallons of gasoline, you’d use two gallons of biofuel! Thus, no harm to the environment.
Arjuna34