Not mentioned in the article is a possible motivation for Vermont - teens can readily (well, they might have to do some walking to dodge border stations, but it’s not like there’s a fence or anything) cross the border into Quebec and enjoy its age-18 drinking laws. I wonder how much money that costs the state.
For that matter, how many bars alonq Quebec’s border rely on 18-20 year-old Americans, I wonder?
If teenagers want to drink they should have to work for it – making their own jailhouse juice. Between the ages of 15 and 18, I did extensive surreptitious research in the field. There were foamings-up and bottles full of mysterious pale gray fuzz, a small explosion or two, projectile spittings-out of unearthly vile flavors, and some projectile vomitting before I found a little book of household hints that included instructions for making “balloon red” in gallon jugs. Some grape juice, some sugar, some yeast, some water…gallon jug, balloon taped over open mouth…balloon begins inflating…then shrinking…when it’s deflated, it’s “Here’s to crime!” time. It worked fine, but after 2 batches the folks caught me getting soused and listeninng to Black Oak Arkansas in my room one Saturday evening and my bootleg racket was thoroughly gangbustered.
. Then I turned 18, which in that far off time meant I had become a Man, and a Drinker. I thought at that time that I was a worthy recipient of this honor and thatit was only right that a Man of Eighteen should take his rightful place, belly-up to the bar. By the time it was raised back to 21, I was a self-satisfied 22, free forevermore to openly and legally drink as much as I wanted, and much more than I needed, with impunity.
If these youngsters can’t put in the effort to learn a simple Pruno recipe without going to reform school, by Ghod, they haven’t earned the right to underage drinking!
The two largest issues (aside from federal funding) IMHO are:
[QUOTE=Simplicio]
Of course, by lowering their drinking age, they just cause the same temptation for young people in adjacent states.
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. . . and . . .
[QUOTE=RTFirefly]
In today’s culture, an even more serious problem with lowering the drinking age to 18 is that once high-school seniors can legally obtain alcohol, some of that booze will find its way to high-school juniors, sophomores, and freshmen as well, and that would be a bad idea.
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However, from what little I’m aware of, it’s just as easy if not easier for a teen to obtain alcohol here as it is for an adult to obtain pot already. If it’s something you want, or your friends want, someone already knows someone who can get it.
Really, though, I think that 18 would be a reasonable age to buy and consume alcohol; maybe not allow bars to serve to people under 21, or under 20, or something, but the main reason for that would be to keep high school kids out of the bars. That just seems problematic in many ways.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
For that matter, how many bars alonq Quebec’s border rely on 18-20 year-old Americans, I wonder?
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Might as well ask this for all of Canada. When I worked in Ontario’s Beer Stores, I saw many IDs from Americans–all of whom were old enough to purchase beer in Ontario, but not old enough to do the same in the US. Similarly, when I worked in a casino in Calgary (in Alberta, the age for drinking and gambling is only 18), I saw more than a few folks in their late teens playing the games and having a few drinks. Among them were many Americans, according to a co-worker who carded those who looked underage at the door. I still recall him telling me over coffee one day, “Hey, as long as they’re legal here in Alberta and can prove it with a valid ID, we’ll let them in, no matter where they come from.”
[QUOTE=BobLibDem]
Do what you want, Vermonters, but be prepared to say ta-ta to your federal highway funds.
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Which is a grand total of about 17mil, which you could make up in sales of Keystone and Busch (or substitute cheapest beer on the shelves there) in one summer.
[QUOTE=Simplicio]
My impression is that Canada has since made it harder for US folks to buy a drink…
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Your impression is incorrect. If an American has a drunk driving conviction, they can forget about entering Canada, but nothing prevent bars and stores in Canada from selling alcohol to anyone of legal age, regardless of nationality.
I remember the days when the drinking age in Ontario was 21 and 18 in New York. Bought my first drink with a false ID (can’t recall if I was carded) at Gabriel’s (Gabe’s), walking distance from one of the Niagara Falls bridges which catered to high school kids from Ontario’s Niagara region. Several months before I turned 21, Ontario dropped the drinking age.
At the time, I thought Ontario was just thrusting off old blue laws heritage and when New York raised theirs, I had no idea it was just federally influenced and figured it was influenced by fundamentalists.
My how times have changed with attitudes towards drinking and driving on both sides of the border.
One thing I know for sure. Teenagers who drink and drive are disadvantaged by inexperience and their impairment more readily results in negative consequences. Its good for young people to have several years of driving under their belt before they take on the risks of having a drink under their seatbelt.
I think…I think the law is extensively ignored. Lots of college kids have access to beer. Even high school kids find ways to get it.
I think the real change will be, not 18-20-year-olds finding beer, but 18-20-year-olds being able to buy beer for their younger friends.
But yeah, let Vermont lower it. Education is the important thing.
[QUOTE=Shagnasty]
I’d like to see it just to have a state give a finger to the feds with these types of back-handed tactics like forcing state laws through extortion. Louisiana actually maintained an 18 year old drinking age until after I graduated college in 1995. It was 100% legal for all intents and purposes in New Orleans. They did it through creative law writing which basically said that it was legal to sell to 18 - 20 year old but it was illegal for us to buy. There was no penalty for buying however. Vermont could do something like that.
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I’ve always wondered if another work-around would be for the law to make it illegal to ENFORCE the other law, while making it perfectly clear that it was legal to not enforce the law…
“If you arrest someone for violating Law A, you’re subject to arrest for violating Law B.”
I was thinking of it mostly as a method for cities to invalidate state law, though…
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
While this is definitely the popular impression, it is in fact false in some states. Alaska, Colorado, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, New York, Ohio (where you can go to a bar and drink, with your parent) and South Dakota all allow drinking in your home under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian, or, in some cases, a spouse over the age of 21 (or did when I last checked up on this issue).
Here’s a compilation, with links to cites.
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Just to clarify, 18 year-olds in South Dakota can also drink in a bar/restaurant (willing to serve them) with a guardian/spouse over the age of 21.
What a grey area!
As a drinker myself, I NEVER condone drinking and driving, as it is stupid and potentially deadly. That being said, 18-year olds in the States certainly view the law of alcohol versus military service with an eye towards hypocrisy.
In my experience, the kids that work for me mostly go to Catholic High schools and they view getting drunk as a fun thing to do…but they always have a designated driver. And they always show up to work on time…despite their hangover.
It’s a tough thing. I have two little boys and I don’t want them to be getting plowed when they are 16…but I did.
[QUOTE=Barbarian]
If an American has a drunk driving conviction, they can forget about entering Canada
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WHAT?! Can you elaborate? It’s been a good 15+ years since I’ve been to Canada but at the time it was just a nod and a wave as we drove across the border. Do they actually stop every car and run background checks on all the passengers now or something?
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
While this is definitely the popular impression, it is in fact false in some states. Alaska, Colorado, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, New York, Ohio (where you can go to a bar and drink, with your parent) and South Dakota all allow drinking in your home under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian, or, in some cases, a spouse over the age of 21 (or did when I last checked up on this issue).
Here’s a compilation, with links to cites.
[/QUOTE]
FWIW, in 1991, when I reported to a training command in NYS we were all inbriefed that a married couple had to be especially careful about letting locals see them drinking - apparently the command had had an over-21 spouse arrested, charged, and sentenced for giving his under-21 spouse a beer on their property.
I don’t know whether that was accurate, or not. Nor if it is still the case. Just that it is what I was told, at the time.
I was grandfathered by VT’s law going up to 21 for the drinking age. I had turned 18 about 23 days before the law went into effect. I never did drive up from Massachusetts to get my own legal booze, but part of that was I could have a beer or two easily enough from my parents if I just asked for it. But I know I wasn’t the only person who made note of that loophole.
Having said that, while I was at college I never saw any particular shortage of booze, for those what wanted it. I don’t think that the current laws work to keep booze out of the hands of ‘semi-minors.’ And the argument that if they’re old enough for combat operations, they should be old enough to vote or drink does hold a lot of weight with me.
Then I remember some of the riots I saw at UMass after the Minutemen won, and I wonder whether it’s reasonable to assume that there won’t be even worse alcohol related incidents if booze is more readily available.
[QUOTE=Cisco]
WHAT?! Can you elaborate? It’s been a good 15+ years since I’ve been to Canada but at the time it was just a nod and a wave as we drove across the border. Do they actually stop every car and run background checks on all the passengers now or something?
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From the Canadian Consulate at Seattle:
[QUOTE=Northern Piper]
From the Canadian Consulate at Seattle:
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Hmm. So if you got caught shoplifting as a kid you can’t go to Canada. Why do they let in draft dodgers, then?
It must be a long wait at the border, now.
The Master speaks; Canada has no draft, so they don’t recognize draft dodging as a crime.
/cynical hat/ Lowering the age would simply admit more men to the bars. As long as you are 18 and not in possession of a penis, you will not have much issue getting into most bars and clubs. /cynical hat/
Lowering the drinking age is a good thing. they need to take the further step of allowing parents to choose to allow controlled drinking of minors in their own home as well. If more kids got the chance to get a good hangover while they were young, we’d have a lot less binge drinking.
[QUOTE=guizot]
Hmm. So if you got caught shoplifting as a kid you can’t go to Canada. Why do they let in draft dodgers, then?
It must be a long wait at the border, now.
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The main issue is DUI. Back in the 80s Alberta and the other prairie provinces had a string of politically significant car crashes caused by drunk Americans, so they became a target. It pretty much put an end to the weekend cross-border boozefest, but that’s a good thing.
[QUOTE=RTFirefly]
Back before the Federal government made all states raise their drinking ages to 21, one or two states had a drinking age of 19. That made sense to me.
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This gets most of them out of high school where they could supply younger teens but more importantly where their legal drinking would put peer pressure on the younger teens.
I guess I’m odd man out, but I’ve never found “old enough to be in the military implies old enough to drink” at all compelling. It seems to me not a whole lot more obvious than “If you’re happy to enter a bar you should be happy to fight in Iraq.”
Society inevitably will judge such things in large measure on their results. 18-year-olds in the army have throughout human history produced results that are basically indistinguishable from those achieved by older soldiers/sailors. Whereas there is a strong perception (whether fully grounded in reality or not) that 18-year-old drinkers encounter and cause problems at a disproportionate and unacceptable rate.