SolGrundy. YOU may not have a firm idea how many Dopers processed that sentence, but as left-leaning as this board is, I suspect it wasn’t “most.” I felt confident enough to predict that at least some readers did “fix” that sentence mentally. I did. Immediately after I typed it. And I wrote it. And I’m not a white racist.
What you call a motive, I simply call a list. Most people who understand something about the thinking of racist groups in America know typically white folks go first, then Asians. (Remember the Axis in WWII?) That’s what I meant by pervasiveness. I didn’t type “subscribed” or “engrained.”
I didn’t take your post as an attack and we agree more than we don’t.
Actually, Askia, on reading that post, it didn’t even occur to me to mentally create a hierarchy of light skinned people, what jumped out at me was this phrase: “a strong preference for light skinned peoples”, and my thought was “Who does he think he’s kidding?”. There is plenty of racism flying around in all directions, and to pretend that it’s only or even predominantly a characteristic of light skinned peoples is: A) Naive in the extreme and B) a somewhat racist assumption in and of itself.
I disagree, and not because of some silly, antiquated idiocy like the “one drop rule”. I disagree because as far as I know, both of those people self-identify as black. I think trying to draw a line here is stupid, both because it leads to silliness like claiming some people are not “black enough”, but more important because it doesn’t matter. If we can all agree that the ultimate goal here is a world where people are seen simply as human and not Black, White, Asian, Jewish or whatever ( Or worse, as niggers, honkies, gooks or kikes etc.), then we need to stop drawing these lines in the first place.
Weirddave. No, there’s plenty of bigotry, hate crime and prejudice in all directions. Actual racism is still mostly just light-skinned people against darker-skinned people.
dropzone. I’m black, dude. I may have my own prejudices and bigotries but I aine pulling a Clayton Bigsby.
:rolleyes:
It sure as hell is mostly light-skinned exercising racism against dark-skinned in the U.S. sometimes within a race.
But now your panties are all in a twist because you think that I’m some “PC offenderati” as you put it, who screams racism/discrimination at every turn. This is not the case at all. I don’t think that every representation or lack thereof in the case of blacks is racism or discrimination. But if you seriously think that it’s still not rampant I’d like to be invited to live in your utopian world because it sure as hell sounds a lot nicer than the one the rest of us have to live in.
I just call it like I see it and racism and discrimination are still everywhere but now it’s conveniently hidden by “political correctness.”
As a sidenote, whether or not there’s plenty of racism flying around depends on your definition of racism. Some people define racism as prejudice, while other define racism as prejudice plus power. According to this definition, anyone can be prejudiced, but only people with power can exercise racism. If Martians formed an underclass to Earthlings, both sides might have prejudices against the other, but the Earthlings have the power, and so who cares if the powerless Martians dislike the majority?
Whoah there! Did you miss out ‘for example’? Black people can be just as racist as white or yellow or whatever. Just look at the sad story of Rwanda and the Hutu / Tutsi massacres.
It has nothing to do with western media. This is a traditional belief in nearly every large-scale civilization I know of, and has been for millennia. It may be classism, but who knows.
And lighter skin is not a noticable survival disadvantage with respect to childfathering, -bearing, and -rearing capacity, as any cancerous element is likely to strike late in quite life.
That’s what people say. It;s widespread enough, however, that I wonder if it wasn’t built into humanity from a very long time ago. In theory, it could date back as far as humans needed a few power, skilled people to fight off animals or something, leaving them free to laze around in the shade while everyone else got the food.
Whoah there yourself. You can call that being greedy, bloodthirsty, genocidal, clannish, tribal or territorial. You can’t do is call it racist because they don’t regard each other as different races.
… again, Japanese attitudes towards other Asian ethnic groups can be considered bigotry, prejudice, discriminatory, true. When another race is involved, the attitude is racist, bordering on xenophobia.
My observation is that many Japanese have no love for dark-skinned people, which is reflected in comments their elected officials make without fear of censure.
"Japan is becoming a considerably intelligent society, far more so than the US. A large number of blacks, Mexicans and Puerto Ricans live in the US. On average the level is still extremely low.’ Yasuhiro Nakasone, former Prime Minister.
Growing up in the upper midwest of the US, we white folks worked our darnest to develop the deepest, darkest tan we could during the summer. My friends & I, we’d constantly be holding our forearms together, comparing tans. The darker the tan, the higher your relative social standing.
Perhaps in some parts of the world, darker skin equates to “works the fields” but I don’t think that’s valid in the US today. If you’re white, having a nice dark tan means you’ve got the leisure time to develop that tan.
Right now what’s popular is a nice medium skin tone, and ambiguous ethnic features. But, we’re talking about models. Models represent an ideal that 99.9% of us can never hope to meet.
OTOH, I was in my late 20s (I’m now in my early 30s) before I saw a model in a fashion magazine that was a “pretty version of me.”
Obviously not exactly like me - but the “if I were thinner, and taller, and more beautiful, and had good lighting and amazing makeup artists, and … I’d look like that.” rather than people who look absolutely nothing like me at all.
I also remember staring at it in shock - because I’d never come across that before.
In the future, please don’t tell me “we agree more than we don’t” if you’re going to go on and say stuff like that. I agree 100% with Weirddave’s assessment. It’s lazy, divisive thinking, trying to pass itself off as genuine social insight.
Okay, SolGrundy. Let me break it down for you, Weirddave and whoever else.
RACISM
Let’s simply define racism is the belief that one race – defined by skin color and bridged by ethnicity – is innately superior to all other races. Agree or disagree?
Let us note that racism is usually demonstrated by fear, resentment, hatred and prejudice against so-called lesser races. Racists frequently opine bigoted statements dehumanizing or demonizing the so-called inferior races as being less intelligent, more immoral, more violent, less industrious and/or childlike.
Oppression, discrimination and violent persecution of those deemed inferior are methods to keep members of the racist overclass safe from harm. Agree or disagree?
Among peoples who are victims of racism, reactions include fear, resentment, hatred and prejudice against so-called superior races. Victims of racism frequently opine bigoted statements dehumanizing the so-called superior races as being less intelligent, more immoral, more violent, less industrious/or childlike.
Being oppressed, discriminated against and violently persecuted by those who call themselves superior, victims of racism have few opportunities to vent their frustrations except in rare moments when their outrage and numbers meet for explosive expression.
The hate that hate produces is not racism, because the so-called inferior races of oppressed people do not (generally) feel as if they are innately superior to all other races. It takes more steps for the underclass to actually feel racist. (More on this later.) RACISM’S ORIGINS
What we know today as racism comes out of a widespread systematic European justification for both slavery and establishing colonies in the New World during the colonial era. Agree or disagree?
In order to justify killing, enslaving and stealing the land Native American, South American, West African and Indian peoples, there eventually came to exist a number of beliefs about these people and their cultures being subhuman, and desperately in need of white man’s progress and civilization, which in turn led to beliefs about various white cultures’ innate superiority in matters of genetics, religions, politics, morality, arts, fashion, etc. to those of most, if not all, dark skinned people. Agree or disagree?
Religious dogma was further used as justification for invasion and enslavement of these native, frequently brown peoples. Missionaries saw their work as saving souls and bringing Christianity to heathenistic and idolatrous Africans, Asians, Indians, Native Americans, etc. Agree or disagree?
BLACK RACISM
Of all the various black groups, I can think of precisely ONE that can be considered-out-and-out racist: Elijah Muhammad’s black Muslims of the Nation of Islam. It recruited prisoners who had been impressed by whites and converted blacks disenchanted with Christianity and codified their hatred and resentment of whites into an actual racism all their own. So in this rare instance, a minority of people within a minority of American blacks, we see black racism. Black Muslims demonized white people by calling them white devils, ofays, peckerwoods and pigs, damned them for their religious indoctrination of blacks during slavery as a “white man’s religion”, dropped “slave names,” called whites morally reprehensible, violent, deranged, greedy, sexually deviant, etc. In addition, they came up with a whole bizarre mythology of white people being the creation of a mad black biologist! This codified belief system is racism, demonstrating amply that blacks can be racist. Agree or disagree?
Most African-Americans aren’t like that. Agree or disagree?
The Nation of Islam as a whole has gotten a lot less vitriolic and hateful in their rhetoric, publications and actions since the death of Elijah Muhammad. Agree or disagree?
The Nation of Islam no longer even constitutes a majority of black Muslim followers in the United States since Elijah’s Muhammad’s son, Imam W. D. Muhammad, split from the NOI and formed the American Muslim Mission. Agree or disagree?
The NOI has been split AGAIN by the Five Percenters, whose organizational makeup is very patriarchal and Afrocentric. While they have some racist beliefs surrounding mystical properties of melanin, their numbers are small. Agree or disagree?
The opinions of the Nation of Islam and Fiver Percenters, no matter how influential (particularly in certain segments of rap and neo-soul), have never constituted a majority of African-American thought and in 2005 still constitute a small minority in the African-American mainstream. Agree or disagree?
BRIEF HISTORY OF RACISM
Nazi Germany in the 20s, 30s and 40s embraced eugenic and euthenics programs in service of the superior Aryan race. They allied themselves with Asians countries like Japan and persecuted black peoples, believing them to be genetically and intellectually inferior. Agree or disagree?
The Ku Klux Klan is racist against dark skinned people. Agree or disagree?
Japanese society is insular, often to the point of xenophobia, and it is overtly racist against dark skinned people. Agree or disagree?
The pattern here is that “actual racism is still mostly just light-skinned people against darker-skinned people.” There are instances like Idi Amin’s purge of Indians, Asians and whites from Uganda, but these instances are comparably rare and do not invalidate my qualifier, “mostly just.” Do you agree or disagree?
Add up all the instances where you agreed with me versus times you did not. Do you mostly agree with me?
I disagree with a lot of what you’ve posted. A lot of it seems to be self serving “It’s not as bad that “we” have the same attitudes as “they” do, because “they” have the power.” Bullshit. You want to condemn the NOI? Fine, stop using the same arguments that are at the root of their racism What’s wrong about racism is the basic attitude, the core belief that people are different-better, worst, however you want to define it-based solely upon something as inconsequential and stupid as the color of their skin or their place of birth. That simple, stupid belief is what is wrong, and it’s just as wrong when a dark skinned person feels that way towards a light skinned one as it is vice-versa. Just because historically in this country it’s been white skinned people who have been in positions of power over black skinned people does not excuse the attitude coming back the other way. It. Is. Wrong. In. Every. Single. Instance. Period. Until people stop trying to excuse it because of “circumstances”, racism a problem that will continue to permeate all levels of society.
