This is the fallacy I’m trying to patiently explain, but it doesn’t appear you’ve read it carefully or kept your mind open.
The attitude doesn’t come back the same way. Someone who’s been told they’re worthless all their lives doesn’t turn around and say, “I hate you… and I’m superior than you!” That’s racism. Hating someone who hates you is normal, self-preservation. I don’t know why you say that’s no excuse, it’s a reasonable reaction.
A person who has been racially oppressed because of a false belief in some brain-dead notion of racial superiority may hate the oppressor for it, but the hatred does not usually transform into racism in reverse. The NOI is a fairly unique group in that regard.
You can name that “hatred of the racist” a lot of ways, but the vast majority of the time you can’t call it racism.
There’s a lot of uppity black church folks who are convinced their clique is morally superior to their counterparts in white America, but I still wouldn’t call that racism, because they look down on other blacks, too.
You’ve been doing a fine job of explaining what you think, what you’re failing to grasp is that I think your explanation is full of fetid fecal mater. Lets take a hypothetical situation. Evil white landowner Weirddave keeps black laborer Askia as a slave on his plantation. Weirddave abuses and tortures Askia. Askia hates Weirddave because of this. With me so far? I have no problem with that scenario. Now suppose instead I changed the last line to “Askia hates whites because of this”. That’s racism, my friend, no two ways about it. It may be racism with an easily understood cause, but it’s still racism, no matter how much you try to deny it.
Oh. Well of course I fail to grasp that, it’s not fetid. It’s barely odorous.
Lets.
I don’t like where this is going, dude.
It goes without saying I do… but… Continue.
No, that’s just hatred. Unless the beaten down laborer somehow grasps a personal belief system where he thinks he’s racially superior to Weirddave, it’s not racism.
I will continue to explain myself as sweetly as possible in the hopes that either 1) you’ll finally get racial superiority = racism or 2) I’ve explained it so someone else gets it.
Actually, thanks you guys for continuing the discussion. It has been enlightening for me.
Here’s one definition from a link I got from searching google with (racisim definition):
** Any attitude, action or institutional structure which systematically treats an individual or group of individuals differently because of their race. … A secondary meaning is the belief that one race – normally caucasian – is inherently superior to other races.**
However, there were tons of definitions there where the secondary meaning was given primacy.
I’m thinking Askia’s definition (the secondary above) for racisim is a good one and Weirddave’s example should be called something like “race-based hatred” .
Thinking about it more Askia, I can see a case where race-based hatred could also be racisim. From your requirement for feelings of race-based superiority, the superiority here is a moral-superiority, that Joe-average white guy is capable of the cruelties of slavery moreso than any other race though I suppose this is stretching things a bit.
Hmmm. No. That’s actually a fair assessment. I actually know plenty of suspicious black folks who’ll say that about white folks right to their face. My dear great grandmother (who was an octaroon) told my mother, “Trish, don’t ever trust no white man.”
But while that’s definitely a bigoted assumption, I’m not sure if it’s enough to call someone racist in an of itself. Most racism also has a thing about assuming members of “lower” races as more violent, less intelligent, less industrious – in addition to assuming an annoying moral superiority. I agree it definitely is an indicator.
I wonder how many Japanese people would agree with you that they are the same race as Koreans or Chinese. Not every culture in the world breaks race down the same way Americans do. I’ve seen more than a few European posters assert that, for example, the English and the French are two different races, and that people who make “cheese eating surrender monkey” jokes are exhibiting racist behavior.
I’d also disagree that feelings of racial superiority are a necessary component to label a particular person or attitude as “racist.” Racism is simply the assigning of traits to people based on their race, and not knowledge of the person. These traits do not even have to be negative. “Black people are good dancers,” or “Asians are good at math,” are both racist ideas, even though they are, on the surface, complimentary to the races in question.
Are stereotypes innately racist? I think in many cases you can operate from a stereotypical POV with regard to another ethnic group or race without being actually racist… but I concede there’s a whoooole lot of overlap, so it’s (sometimes) a good indicator.
You know something? I knew you were going to seize on this and I almost went back to clarify, but I was late for work. You’ve been redefining the term racism in increasingly narrow terms to suit your own purposes this entire thread, why should you change now? While I agree with your point that racial superiority is racism, it’s not the sum total of racism. Suppose in my example above I had said that the black slave believes that all whites are cruel because of the way one white person treated him. Is that racism? If it’s not, than a white person thinking all blacks are thieves because one robbed him can’t be racism either. Would you care to defend that position?
And Balduran? “Race based hatred” is racism too. It’s another type of racism, different from racial superiority, but still racism.
Agreed. If my focus has become narrower, it’s just that I think feeling superior is key to the definition of racism. EVERYTHING else: discrimination, bigotry, hostility, intolerance – stems from this superiority complex.
Sure. They’re both bigots. They might be racist, too, but it’s not conclusive.
The wise MC KRS-ONE had a rap called, The Racist where he posits there being about five kinds of racists: People brought up racist, people racist out of ignorance, people racist out of fear aaaaaand… shoot. Two more I can’t remember.
Well, it is certainly a definition of racism, which I don’t think anyone would argue with, but your first two cites both also define it as “discrimination or prejudice based on race,” with no indication that either definition is preferred or more common. “Don’t ever trust a white man,” is absolutely racist under that definition, as it is a prejudice based on race: white = untrustworthy. Even under your “feelings of superiority” defintion, it still fits, as the implication is that white people are less trustworthy than black people. Outside of the patronizing examples I gave earlier (Asians are good at math, etc.) , I’m actually having a hard time of think of a negative racial stereotype that would not be considered a judgement of racial superiority.
I also take issue with the idea that someone who judges others based on their race because they were themselves the past victim of racism, is therefore not a racist himself. A black man from circa 1950s Alabama who has been attacked for racial reasons may come to the conclusion that all white people are evil racists. The reasons why he arrived at this conclusion may to some degree excuse the conclusion, it does not alter its fundamentally racist nature: white people are evil. By way of example, there have been numerous studies that suggest victims of child abuse are more likely to grow up to be abusers themselves. The fact that they were once victims of the same crime does not change the nature of the crime they committed themselves.