Very depressing...

In My Humble Opinion
1

I have recently been spending a lot of time on askme.com
I hang out in a few of the message board areas, answering questions about science, alternative medicine, and the paranormal. I take a skeptical point of view, and try to impart that onto my answers. The way I figure, there will be any number of answers that deal with the pseudoscientific side, but almost noone will answer questions with a skeptical point of view.

But man, is it ever depressing to be on there sometimes. Take the psychic boards. People want to know the future, want to know their lucky number, if their spouse is havng an affair, where their missing loved ones are, how to contact their dead relatives, what the name of the spirit haunting their house is named, and so on. Then on the alternative medicine section, we have people telling others to try ear candling, homeopathy, acupuncture, aromatherapy, therapeutic touch, and all manner of unproven unscientific ineffective therapies for any illness from obesity to cancer.
There is just so much dammed crap out there, that I feel like I’m getting overwhelmed. For every rational explanation I give, I see several nonsense answers! It’s frustrating, y’know? I get low ratings sometimes for my answers, for no other reason other than the person doesn’t like to be told the other side of the story. People hate having their beliefs challenged, and only want to hear confirmation statements…
See, I like to have proof of claims. If a therapy claims to be able to heal a particular woe, there should be more proof than simple testimony. If someone says they are a psychic, they should be able to demonstrate it on the spot using a controlled scientific method. Is that too much to ask?

How many on this board accept alternative medicines, or paranormal events? If so, why? Is it your own experience? Has anyone ever had a medical woe cured by an alternative therapy? Has anyone ever been told something by a psychic that could not have been derived by any means other than paranormal ones?

Let’s hear the stories.

2

Well, I can tell you something that happened to me. This could be explained I am sure, but has not up to this point. This happened three days after my husband had died, and there were 5 other people present at the time. During the last year of my husbands’ illness he was using a walker, and prone to falling. For his safety he wore a lifeline device that he could push a button and someone would answer his call and phone me to alert me he needed assistance. For this I wore a pager, and the only person with this number was the lifeline operator. Anyway, after he died, I removed the pager from my purse, and turned it off. I placed the pager on the top of the fridge. Three evenings later, the pager went off, and my daughter picked it up. I told her it must be a wrong number and to call the number being displayed and explain to that person they had misdialed. She read the number to me, and it was the number of the pager. This little device had called itself, while being turned off? I am sure there is some explanation for this happening, but I would like to think it was his way of saying goodbye.

3

No offense intended to believers, whatever gets you through the day is fine by me. Of course, that holds true only if you don’t push your beliefs on unwilling others.

That said, I think all of that psychic/paranormal/alternative medicine stuff is a big bunch of smelly, runny, steaming, freshly laid, fiber enhanced pile of horse shit.

But that’s just one man’s opinion. And you know what they say about opinions, right?

Heembo.

4

Well Im not sure, but I believe in it just in case so I don’t tempt fate.

5

I totally believe in the whole ghost/spirit world thing. There are just way too many freaky things out there that can’t be explained.

As for the whole homeopathic medicine issue… I think that the treatments are, for the most part, a bunch of BS. The only reason they work is that they work with the mind. The brain is so powerful, it can cause a person to think they have any number of illnesses, from a headache, to nausea, to itchy skin, etc. The reason the treatments work is the same reason why these people think they have the illnesses in the first place - it’s all in their heads. Kind of a placebo effect (i think).

I’d get more into it, but I’m tired and it takes too much energy to think when I’m this tired.

6

Sounds like you’re fighting the good fight, Stupendous; keep it up!

Beats me why so many people are so credulous. The failure of American public education?

7

I don’t believe in alternative medicine, or paranormal events, etc. However, I don’t completely disregard them either - sometimes people just need to have something they believe in… if thinking that they can tell the future with the tarot cards makes someone happy, why should I piss on their parade unless they start getting weird about it? If they start telling me to avoid blondes or something, I’ll roll the eyes and tell them they’re losing it… otherwise let them have their fantasy. The only time I feel that interfering is necessary is when people have beliefs that may harm them - this pertains more to alternative medicine than anything else.

If I let every flaw in logic bother me, I’d be forever pulling out my hair - and that’s just over my own flaws! :slight_smile:

FD.

8

It’s easier to brush things off as “the mysterious power of the otherworld” than to work to find rational explainations.

Don’t give up, some of us still have an interest in rationality.

9

Well, to look at it another way, when you fail to seek an alternative explanation, the paranormal becomes the easy way out, no?

10

Thanks.

It’s not just the American Education system though. I get messages from all over the world. I think it is some sort of trait present in all people to believe. Many people are so ignarant of true science, that they fail to realize that the Universe follows a very strict set of laws that cannot be circumvented. They see the universe as so weird, vast, and incomprehensible, that anything is possible.

11

Press on, Stupendous man, it’s all about fighting ignorance wherever you find it. I spent some time in an astrology forum over the last few years, though it’s been six months since I’ve visited the place. Last time I posed a hard question they accused me of trolling, as if I hadn’t made my position abundantly clear from the outset, and that offended me so badly I haven’t felt like going back. It gets hard to take sometimes, and it’s one of the reasons I’ve been unusually circumspect (for me) on these boards.

I don’t think the problem is the educational system, here or anywhere else, it’s something deeper in the human psyche that finds rational analysis unnatural, or too hard, or too uncomfortable, or something. Most of the world seems to believe one or more of the following, for no reason that makes any sense to me:

  1. there are supernatural forces that will protect us if we follow the proper rituals.
  2. some part of your personality survives the death of your body.
  3. the universe has some purpose.
  4. people have special untapped powers that will enable them to get something for nothing.

The complete absence of reliable, credible evidence for any of those claims doesn’t deter many people from believing them. You might want to back off and take a rest from askme.com sometimes, but don’t give up.

12

acupuncture actually I think is recognized as proven. I remember a history teacher telling me that:)

13

Two excellent books on this subject are:
Believing in Magic, by Stuart Vyse
Why People Believe Weird Things, by Michael Shermer.

Like OldMan says, it is something in our psychological makeup; sort of a default setting.

14

My story: Agnes, my late labrador retriever, was diagnosed with malignant melanoma after the evil black grape-like cluster was found in her inner lip. Excised once, it grew back within a couple of weeks. Doom and gloom at the vet. With unknown but regarded as swift metasticization(sp)rate she was given three months to live, with no idea which organs would fail first. Usually the kidneys as the cancer spreads and sets up shop.

Huh? Bummer. Chemo could be tried but basically that is way invasive experimentation with a lousy track record in canines.

They offered to euthanize her upon diagnosis. Homey don’t play that. She was bright-eyed and playful as ever. One of the visiting vets knew of a DVM homeopathic practitioner. (Voodoo! he whispered, but this guy gets results!). First off as a DVM this particular vet didn’t go for homeopathy until conventional medicine was used up.

We had a lengthy telephone consult: discussed Agnes’ attitude, eating habits, environment, our schedules, etc. Put her on a ‘pure food’ diet (we still use Flint River Ranch dog and cat varieties to this day), used vitamin supplements, got on the whole diet program. Then the homeopathy started. We would get the little vials of stuff in the mail, follow the instructions, stick to the schedule without fail (sometimes three administrations a day), kept in touch with the vet who tweaked the potions.

Agnes stayed happy for the two years we did this. Her final year witnessed an ever -growing tumor off her neck area, ended up being melon sized, but she still barked, hunted, remained alert and loving, had quality of life. When she began having seizures we had her put to sleep. The tumor had finally worked its way into her spine.

If we hadn’t followed the course laid out by the DVM homeopothist we might not have had Aggie for those two wonderful additional years.

I know what Cecil says about the dilutions of homeopathic tinctures being so great that none of the original product is left. He can bite me on this one.

I tried to research homeopathy on the web and there are a lot of unlicensed alternative wackos out there. It is scary. But I know an oncologist who knows several patients who have exhausted all other methods of cancer maintenance going the homeopathic route. I hope I never have to make that decision for a loved one.

15

I tend to take people at their word. If someone relates a UFO or Ghost story to me I will ask some questions and try to find a possible explanation but I don’t tell people that they are just wrong. That tends to piss people off and they won’t answer any more questions.

I have expierenced some strange stuff. A drawer would open and close by itself. I never got to see it moving though so I can’t be 100% sure that some real person did’n’t do it but I was the only person I knew of in the building.

As far as non-traditional medicine goes…
I don’t really have a strong opinion of that stuff. I think our medicine is good but the system we have to get the stuff is bad. Maybe if people had an easier time getting real doctors they would go so much for the ‘quack’ type stuff.

16

Interesting thing about acupuncture. The studies of it from China all show that it works. 100% of them. Every one. That violates all statistical analysis, even if it does work! Heck, not all studies of Penicillin show it to be effective as an antibiotic! Someone’s been tampering with the data, to get a result like that!

Best studies I’ve seen shows that perhaps acupuncture works better than placebo for some things, but not for everything they claim it, nor does it work nearly as well as they claim.

Qadgop, MD

17

I don’t believe much in paranormal events. I do believe in certain forms of alternative therapies, though, even if they are unproven. I will try to explain why (WARNING - long winded explanation follows).

In this country, I think we are actually quite fond of scientific proof, but it takes money and time to build and execute a good scientific study. We also tend to think our scientific proof is truer than anyone else’s, so homegrown proof is the best. :smiley:

Medical studies in this country are done by three main groups: universities, the government, and private businesses such as drug and biotechnology companies.

Let’s take herbal remedies as an example of a type of alternative medical subject that could be studied. Which of these three groups will come forward and be willing to put precious time and money on the line to do a study? Most likely none. Why?

  • Private companies are likely only to do research on items they can make money from if the research pans out. Most herbal remedies have been around for centuries and anyone can sell them. Trying to make your money back, plus a profit, on the basis of your research is going to be damn near impossible because your company wasn’t the one that discovered or developed the remedy.

  • As much fun as people make of the government here, they aren’t going to spend your tax dollars doing research on remedies that a lot of people think are BS, are easily available if someone wants to try them, and they are going to get a lot of criticism for. Researching things like cancer and heart disease are going to play a whole lot better in Peoria. It makes sense to put the limited amount of money available into studies that would provide the best outcomes for the largest amount of people.

  • Universities are a meld - they get some of their money from government, some from private sources, like companies and private individuals. The reluctance of corporations and the government to get involved has already been explained, and there are very few private individuals with enough money to fund a study that will cost millions of dollars.

And we’re just talking about a single study here. One single study that seems to show efficacy and safety is not enough to be reliable, so multiple studies need to be done before the remedy could claim any legitimacy among the scientific community.

So we probably aren’t likely to get the scientific proof that we like, at least not soon. An herbal remedy could work quite well in actual practice, and still attract no money to fund a controlled study for it. It seems the alternative remedies that are finally gaining acceptance here (things like St. John’s Wort and glucosamine are good examples) have been widely studied (and used) for years in other countries, and the basis for getting studies funded here were the results of research that was done somewhere else.

Therefore, the fact that some former alternative therapies have not only been shown in other countries to be effective but have also gained scientific acceptance here is enough for me to believe there are probably more out there, and just because scientific validation is lacking doesn’t mean they aren’t effective. It just means that other priorities are at hand.

And if you’ve read far enough to get to this paragraph, I do know whereof I speak, as I work for a large research university in their school of public health.

18

I have what I consider to be an appropriately open mind with regard to “alternative” therapies, procedures, etc. The fact that we can’t figure out why something works doesn’t mean that it doesn’t.

As an agnostic, I am already in a place where I feel quite comfortable accepting that I don’t know everything and that I can leave open the possibility that any number of preposterous things might actually be true (or have basis in fact.)

I know several people (including my mother-in-law) who have received great relief from acupuncture treatments. Could part of their relief come from a placebo effect? If acupuncture is, all or in part, dependent on putting the patient’s mind in a state in which it can aid in the healing of the body, what is so awful about that? Isn’t the possibility that we have the ability to advance our own healing a good thing?

The Western mind (I know, because I have one) likes to have everything spelled out. We like to know exactly why things happen. We like to dissect everything (literally and figuratively) until we feel we “understand” it all. So when I read about moxibustion (a traditional Chinese treatment that combines burning herbs with acupuncture) being used to turn breech babies, my immediate thought was that, if anything, it helped to calm the mother. (Relaxed muscles and specific postures make it easier for the baby to turn.)

However, I just read a description of a randomized, controlled study that indicates that moxibustion causes both increased fetal activity during the week following treatment and increased cephalic (head down) presentation at birth. Now, it may not actually be the increased fetal activity that causes the baby to turn, but it does seem reasonable to assign at least some weight to it. And I have to admit that, now that I have a “reasonable” explanation (or possible explanation, anyway,) I find it easier to accept that the procedure works.

19

The NYT sunday magazine ran a cover story a couple of years ago looking at the placebo effect. The suggestion is that it’s indeed quite powerful, to the point that it merits serious study as therapy in its own right. The difficulty is that it’s so hard to control, to invoke and use in a rational, dose-measured, doctor-comforting fashion. I suspect that psychologically it’s difficult for a Western-trained physician to use something that, at root, suggests that certain treatments “work” precisely because they are irrational.

20

My granola-head sister believes everything and has become somewhat of a “practitioner” in many of these charlatan schemes. I am frequently directing her to www.quackwatch.com. The guy is a retired doctor, and while a bit extreme in his approach, he truly believes that until scientific tests can demonstrate some benefits, alternative therapies are quackery and money grubbing schemes. He seems a bit closed minded to some possibilities, but the site might be worth some perusal.