Very simple grammar question

Factual Questions
41

I suppose I should start another thread with this one, but I am campaigning (albeit not too vigorously) for the usage of apostrophes with abbreviations, so I write : CD’s, PC’s, TLA’s and the like.

I’ll freely admit that this is not considered correct by most standards, but I’ll submit this for consideration :

What are you going to do about the ROUS’s? (with apologies to S. Morgenstern). What I really mean is, how are the esses to be handled? As I see it, abbreviations that end in S can be written either : PCSs, PCSes, or PCS’s. The first one is wrong under traditional grammar rules, since the second one ought to be used (add an e in between). I like the third option best. I discussed this with someone working on a Ph.D. in English (and yes, he was further along than a Bachelor’s) who supported me at least in this case, since the apostrophe signifies the missing e, which looks awkward. And if you are referring to letters, like learning the ABC’s, do you write S’s, Ses, or Ss?

So maybe if you’ll accept the 's ending, you’ll accept the others? Okay, I guess I can’t write the rules of grammar. But I’d sure like to.

I also don’t know what to do about acronyms. I wouldn’t write radar’s or laser’s, but those are quite common words now. I think I should push consistency, which means writing WIMP’s, HUD’s, and ATAC’s.
And I don’t think one should jump on someone’s grammar if unless they’ve made it an issue. I don’t consider it unless it’s been brought up, then I notice. In fact, it’s been impossible for me not to post this without mentioning the minor errors in Boris B’s list of rules. Not that I didn’t enjoy the list; I did.

panama jack

ROUS’s? I don’t believe they exist.
(apologies to William Goldman before people yell at me.)

42

I did really well at grammar. I don’t always follow the rules as well as I should, but I do know the rules. Plural possessive pronouns are things like:

Smiths’

It indicates ownership to more than one person, and needs an apostrophe at the end.

43

lolagranola

Smiths’ is not a pronoun. It is a proper noun. Nouns always use an apostrophe to denote possession. Pronouns never use one to denote possession. Contractions always use apostrophes.

44

Sorry to hijack my post, but you all say I’m right, right? (I doubt my friend will believe me unless you actually say it)

45

Speaker for the Dead

The word “it’s” is a contraction for “it is”. The word “its” is the possesive form of the pronoun “it”. You are correct. Your friend is incorrect.

Point of order: I don’t think you can hijack your own thread to bring it back to topic.

46

Speaker, you are correct. You may be in the minority, but you are correct.

47

45 replies? Please, ask a difficult question next time.

And you are right, dear, tell the other guy to pay up.

48

Been days since I had a dust up with Arnold so let me contribute to this monumentally anal thread. Isn’t (or: is not) it easier to just remember to use the apostrophe only as a replacement for the ‘i’ ? Maybe I oversimplified my homework to avoid the mnemonic plague.

49

**
By the way, the “should of” vs. “should have” issue raised by v.o.r. is precisely the kind of pedantry I think we should avoid. Besides, we all know what RM meant and it was probably said in jest anyway. **
[/QUOTE]

Very well, I apologize for pendatry. But, while I have you here, please clarify the difference between “less” and “fewer”, “further” and “farther”, and what the Hell people mean when they say, “more or less.” Also, why must I put my commas and periods INSIDE the quote marks, when they are NOT part of the quote?

Much of this is trivial, I know, but there is a time and place for everything, so formal business writing gets my utmost attention, while email is more relaxed. Now, if I can just get everyone to stop saying “often” with the ‘t’ pronounced, and perpetuating non-words like “acrossed” and “irregardless,” I’d be less prone to pedantry in everyday life.

50

Yeah, but where’s the fun in that?
I like my “mnemonic” (that I invented myself, by the way) because it’s so confusing.

51
  1. “Less” is used for uncountable items:
    • There’s less water in the pool today. (BUT: There are fewer gallons of water in the pool today.)
    • There’s less smog in the air.

“Fewer” is used for countable items:
• This line is for 12 items or fewer.
• There are fewer men here than women. (It doesn’t matter if there are 10 quadrillion men; they are still countable items.)

  1. “Farther” is used for distance only; “further” is used for time, amount, or other abstract matters:

• How much farther to New York?

• How much further can we take this discussion?

• I won’t think any further about how much farther he ran today.

  1. You should put the commas and periods inside the quotation marks because that’s the correct way to do it in American English.

  2. “Often” with a pronounced “t” is acceptable according to my Merriam-Webster Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary – it says that “often” is an alternative of “oft,” both derived from Middle English; hence the prounced “t.”

If you are looking for a grammar & style manual and don’t know what to buy, I recommend The Little, Brown Handbook, The Chicago Manual of Style, or A Manual for Writers by Kate Turabian.

52

Like that, Bunny – very clear.

Couple of questions;

Is a period what I would call a full stop – one of those things at the end here. Or does a ‘period’ only apply at the end of paragraphs to you wild, crazy people ?

Also:
** “3. You should put the commas and periods inside the quotation marks because that’s the correct way to do it in American English.”**

– trying to think of a circumstance when a comma wouldn’t appear inside the quotation marks if it was a……quotation ?

Well, this thread is probably the only environment I’ll ever find in which I can ask this without attracting strange looks and shaking heads so…… seize the day.

OK, this has been troubling me for some time: What is the difference between “inflammable liquid” and…………”flammable liguid” ?

Is it just a quirk of the language ?

(Pheww, I feel….unburdened)

53

err “liquid”

54

Thanks, L.C. – I am quite obsessive about grammar (NOT about picking out someone’s mistakes or ridiculing anyone who isn’t “correct” – just when people ask for the standard rules, which aren’t always practical to use anyway). I don’t follow all the rules all the time, either - depends on the audience and the nature of what is being written.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by London_Calling *
**Is a period what I would call a full stop – one of those things at the end here. Or does a ‘period’ only apply at the end of paragraphs to you wild, crazy people ?

[QUOTE]
**

A period is a full stop. Sentences usually have periods at the end, but sometimes in bulleted text or other special formats they aren’t used. I was taught that if one bullet requires a period, then all bullets in that group should have a period at the end, but I have seen many instances of this not being done - including in Time magazine. I think it looks assinine, but whatever.

Re commas in quotations: It doesn’t matter how the person made his statement – you should punctuate the commas according to the standard rules. Let’s assume that some guy said, “I love trouble and everything that goes with it.” If I were going to repeat his words, here are some ways I could do it:

• He said, “I love trouble” and then said a bunch more nonsense.

• He said, “I love trouble,” which I thought was strange. (Probably should note that the quotation is incomplete.)

• He said, “I love trouble … ” which I thought was strange. (Ellipses signify missing text.)

• He said, “I love trouble…” (4 ellipsis marks because the sentence is finished.)

• “I love trouble and everything that goes with it,” I heard him say. (Use a comma even though the original words were a statement.)

• He said that he loves trouble "and everything that goes with it” but I didn’t believe him. (Partially indirect, partially direct; no punctuation immediately before the closing mark because it’s not the end of the sentence.)

• He said that he loves everything that goes with it [trouble].

Verb tenses sometimes change in indirect quotations:

• He said, "I will murder my wife. Indirect quote = He said that he would murder his wife.

• He said, “I am going to murder my wife.” Indirect quote = He said that he was going to murder his wife.

• He said, “I murdered my wife.” Indirect quote = He said that he had murdered his wife.

Flammable vs. inflammable: they mean the same thing. Just one of the weird little things in English. There are lots more like that; of course I can’t think of any others right now.

You know, I’ve previewed this about 10 times already and I keep finding some little thing to correct - I’m sure there will be more for someone to find!

55

I have to admit the improper use of it’s is a peave of mine. True that it’s should never be used as a possessive, and that it can abbreviate “it is.” One thing to add: “it’s” can also be an abbreviation for “it has.”

What a long, strange trip it’s been…

56

Yes, many of the folks who write grammar books will tell you to put any punctuation adjacent to a closing quote mark to the left of the quote mark. With all due respect to miss_bunny, many of the folks who write grammar books are idiots. A pair of quotation marks encloses a string which is being mentioned, rather than used, such as a string uttered by another person. If, for instance, the original utterance was not a question, then a question mark is not part of the original string, and it is hence counter to the purpose of quotation marks to put the question mark to the left of the closing quote mark. Here is an example: Bob says, “I love football.”. If I am unsure as to what Bob said, I might ask

(I could also put a period before the closing quote mark, as Bob did end his sentence at that point, but the current form is also correct, as a quote of part of what Bob said.)
If, on the other hand, Alice were talking about how much Bob loves football, and Bob skeptically replied “I love football?”, and I again doubted my hearing, then my utterance would read

Note the difference in meaning here: There is a genuine ambiguity. Unfortunately, of course, the two forms are indistinguishable in spoken English, but since they are distinguishable in written or typed English, we ought to distinguish between them.

57

Chronos, your statement “If, for instance, the original utterance was not a question, then a question mark is not part of the original string, and it is hence counter to the purpose of quotation marks to put the question mark to the left of the closing quote mark” is correct, but some of the examples you give are not.

**
No, you wouldn’t put a period to the left of the close mark. It doesn’t matter that Bob ended his sentence there; your question mark afterwards supercedes the period.

[/quote]
**
There wouldn’t be another question mark to the right of the close mark. Question marks and exclamation points that are part of a direct quote supercede an additional mark on the outside of the quotation mark.

58

Chronos, I hope I didn’t come off like I was correcting you. I was, obviously, but I only pointed out your examples because you started off with a statement that showed you know the format but then gave examples contrary to it; I just think you didn’t realize you were right in the first place.

I also hope I am not sounding like some grammar police person. This just happens to be a subject that I have always found extremely logical and easy to understand, but I know that it is maddeningly confusing for many people. As I’ve stated before, I would never correct someone’s spelling, grammar, punctuation – whatever – unless they asked for assistance in a grammar thread, or if they decided to summarily correct my grammar in a non-grammar thread. Then I am happy to point out their errors too.

59

missbunney;

I’m no expert, Bunny, but that comma seems a little curious. If it’s good grammar this side of the pond I’m afraid I’ve been wrong an awful lot. Think I need to do a little research on this. Thanks again.

60

I’ll verify for you, London_Calling, that missbunny was correct.

To reiterate a couple of points that have gone back and forth a couple times and are, at this point, net confusing:

–commas and periods are included within quotation marks, even though they may be grammatically necessary only to the quoting sentence and not the quoted one

–most other punctuation marks (question marks, exclamation points, colons, etc.) are only included within the quotes if they are part of the original quote; they are external to the quote if they are part of the quoting sentence’s grammar rather than that of the quoted sentence’s

–ellipses within quotes indicate that the quote has been edited; outside the quote they are an informal writing device implying a thought left unstated by the writer

–the “in-” of “inflammatory” is not the prefix “in-” of injustice or insensitive, which corresponds to “un-” and has a negative force on the word to which it is appended. “Inflame” is a complete verb, without prefix, from the latin “inflammare,” and “inflammatory” is merely its adjectival form. (Perhaps better examples of English’s internal inconsistencies are “loosen” and “unloosen,” or “thaw” and “unthaw.” Personally I think the former of each pair is more correct, but both forms are currently in use)

A couple of personal pet peeves:

–it’s “different from,” never “different than.” “Than” indicates a comparison of degree–“bigger than,” etc.–but an unspecified difference–“different from”–is an absolute and implies no degree of difference. Two things can be more different than two other things, but they cannot be different than each other. It’s easy to remember: absolute statement versus comparison of degree

–“myriad” is not a noun, but an adjective. Its usage is exactly like that of “many.” “There are myriad shops at the mall,” not ". . . a myriad of . . . "

–“comprised” is not interchangeable with “composed.” The whole comprises the parts; the parts compose the whole. Use “comprise” as you would “include”: “The group comprises four men and four women,” not “The group is comprised of . . .”

–“epitome” does not mean the utmost; it means the best representation: it means, really, the most average, as opposed to the best of the best. To say “George W. Bush is the epitome of the modern Republican” means that he would not stand out in a crowd

I’m sure I’ll come up with more as soon as I hit “send.”