I recently watched the 1960’s movie about the D-Day Invasion, ‘The Longest Day’, while it was pretty good what struck me most were the bloodless battle scenes, while well made and exciting it was somewhat suspension-of-disbelief straining to see soldiers all dying quickly and bloodlessly (the classic ‘throw hands in the air, gasp, and collapse’ death scene)
While I understand that movie-making conventions and public sensibilities were different in those days I wondered what veterans of WW2 who had seen the realities of that conflict in all its blood and gore thought of the sanitised depictions of violence, did they accept that that was just how movies were made or did they get annoyed at such a ‘clean’ depiction of war?
A secondary question is how realistic should war movies be in their depictions of conflict and violence.
btw (yes, I realise different veterans opinions would differ but I’m just using the word in the general sense)
bttw I’m not a fan of gore and don’t view it as a good thing but one reason why Saving Private Ryan was so memorable was because it was so bloody and realistic, one of the first ‘big name’ war films to be filmed as such…I remember seeing it in the cinema and being genuinely stunned at the opening Omaha beach scene.
After a lifetime of hearing veterans talk back to the TV during war movies/programs, I can say that GORE isn’t what drives a vet crazy!
My veterans (dad was in WW2, retired after 20 years in the AF, husband retired after 20 years in the Army) take their military entertainment SERIOUSLY. I’ve heard bitching about improper salutes, wrong uniforms, planes that are impossible to hold into a spinning dive, lack of proper field protocol (“SPREAD OUT, DAMMIT!”), and the very worst of all, “Over and out.”
Daddy is gone now, but Hubster has absolutely picked up the standard and carries it to this day. And the damned movie makers STILL gotta say, “Over and out.”
~VOW
The thing is that in the 1960’s and 1970’s there was a good chance that the actors, directors and other personnel involved in production were themselves war veterans. In the longest day, Richard Todd was involved in the operation for example. THEY apparently thought it was fine.
Yeah, they remember every detail of every battle. They didn’t watch those movies to see the gore, they wanted to see the places again, recount the stories, feel the way they felt.
As you can see from this clip, they always remembered every detail accurately.
My impression, first and secondhand, was that the last thing WWII veterans ever wanted to talk about was any bloody stuff they’d actually encountered. (I remember being warned as a kid not to ask my uncle about what he might have seen or done over there; apparently it was deeply unpleasant to remember and not something fit for family conversation.)
Going back a touch further, Korean War vet Michael Caine got his first meaningful on-screen work in A HILL IN KOREA by doubling as the technical advisor.
[QUOTE=Michael Caine]
I advised the crew to spread the troops wide as the latter advanced, which was militarily correct, but they replied that they didn’t have a lens of sufficient width to take it all in! I also pointed out that the officer would have removed his signs of rank and worn a hat, the same as the other men, to disguise which one was in command, but George was allowed to go into battle with all badges and hat gleaming, every inch an officer. In a real fight, he would have lasted all of ten seconds.
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[QUOTE=wiki]
Many of the military consultants and advisors who helped with the film’s production were actual participants in the action on D-Day, and are portrayed in the film. The producers drew them from both sides; Allied and Axis. Among them are Günther Blumentritt (a former German general), James M. Gavin (an American general), Frederick Morgan (Deputy Chief of Staff at SHAEF), John Howard (who led the airborne assault on the Pegasus Bridge), Lord Lovat (who commanded the 1st Special Service Brigade), Philippe Kieffer (who led his men in the assault on Ouistreham), Pierre Koenig (who commanded the Free French Forces in the invasion), Max Pemsel (a German general), Werner Pluskat (the major who was the first German officer to see the invasion fleet), Josef “Pips” Priller (the hot-headed pilot) and Lucie Rommel (widow of Erwin Rommel).
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Furthermore, Richard Todd played the Glider troops commander and he was actually invoilved in Overlord. The scene on Point Du Hoc included actual veterens of that mission. Furthermore, amiongst cast members Richard Burton, Red Buttons, Henry Fonda, Edmun O Brien, Patrick Barr (Ambulance unit), Simon Lack and others were veterens of the war. So all in all the OP chose a very poor example for his point.
I was watching some movie or another with my Dad, and when the officer and some enlisteds did the salute thing he muttered ‘sniper check’ under his breath. He also snorted when they were blundering around in the dark trading passwords. He had this little cricket clicker thing, if it was dark, you clicked. If you didn’t get a click back you shot the guy.
mrAru is sort of the same about anything dealing with modern US and commblock submarines [though he really enjoyed das Boot]. He says he would have loved to get underway without walking in canned goods and boxes, and sharing his rack with spare parts.
In WWII the Zippo lighter was sometimes used to signal in this way. One “challenged” an approacher by flicking open and then closing his Zippo. It makes a distinctive sound. If the approacher did the same, he was allowed to advance, otherwise he was fired upon.
My grandfather was captured by the Japanese and worked the length of the Thai-Burma Railway.
When Bridge on the River Kwai came out he went to see it and apparently had nightmares for weeks after but still didn’t think it was realistic enough in the depiction of what the POW’s went through.
I wasn’t asking about technical accuracy, I was asking specifically about the ‘cleanliness’ of the combat depicted whereby someone killed simply gasps, throws their hands up and collapses whereas real combat is a lot bloodier and more gruesome than that. Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers and other modern warfilms have a more realistic depiction of the ‘blood and guts’ aspect of combat.
Again I’m not a fan of gore but its necessary for any halfway realistic depiction of that aspect of warfare.
I understand why the movies of that and earlier periods were filmed that way, what I was wondering was if veterans themselves thought they depicted an overly sanitised view of armed conflict.
My father used to always bitch about co-workers who would talk about the scene in “Patton” where he prays for good weather and the next day it’s clear sunshine. "I was at the Battle of the Bulge. It snowed every damn for five weeks. There was no clear. And these guys at work, educated men, look at me with a blank face and say-but that wasn’t in the movie ".
I don’t remember him making any comments about the lack of blood, although he film tastes ran to Howard Hawks, Fritz Lang, Ingmar Bergman. He did complain once about being in the hospital and having to watch some Stallone directed film where “the preening bastard has to include himself in every shot”. He did complain about “12 O’clock High” minimizing B-17 losses by tight formations providing Flying Fortresses gunners to protect the squadron-the heavy losses in “Command Decision” were more accurate.
It did clear sufficiently for Allied air strikes to be launched, did it not? Surely that’s what turned the tide (in addition to the Germans simply running out of fuel).
While we’re at it, can we clear up something else once and for all: According to US military etiquette, is it permitted to salute when one is bareheaded? Are there any exceptions to the rule? Has it ever changed over the years?
Is it the same in the militaries of other countries as well?
You should read George MacDonald Fraser’s wonderful A Hollywood History of the World: as well as a noted historical novelist of the Flashman novels and others, Fraser was a WWII veteran of the Burma Campaign, and he devotes a chapter of his account of how history has been depicted in cinema to military movies.
He’s not that keen on gore, having probably saw his fair share of it, but he does devotes a lot of fascinating attention to the philosophy and politics behind war movies old and new, including a professional critique of the poor soldiering depicted onscreen in such movies as Platoon and Full Metal Jacket.
I say realistic enough so that it serves the scene. For example, Glory opens with Matthew Broderick’s Col Shaw being showered with an anonymous (to us) comrade’s blood. It is a gory, shocking moment that establishes the risks and horror these men faced and fits the scene. Later, Shaw and all the other characters we’ve come to care for die relatively “clean” deaths, because it would be excessive to show them dismembered by cannon fire or Minie bullets - although many certainly were. Want to show me how shitty war is? First, make me care about the deaths I’m watching through character development, otherwise it becomes Call of Duty: Modern Warfare - The Movie.
I’m Air Force, but have worked in Navy squadrons. Both services occasionally require us to formally “report in” to our commander where you knock once on the commander’s open door, wait 'till he/she says enter, walk in while squaring your corners (don’t just stroll in) and finally stand one pace away from their desk at attention, snap a salute (or not) and say “Sir/Ma’am, (rank + your name) reports as ordered/reporting”. The Air Force and Navy differ slightly on the verbiage and whether or not a salute is rendered. Since it’s been awhile since I’ve been called on the carpet, I can’t remember which service requires a salute. We usually just ask the commander’s secretary what the protocol is.
You also typically render a salute indoors when accepting an award. Outdoors you’re not required to salute if you’re on a work detail or in an area where headgear is prohibited, like a flight line where it might get sucked into an engine intake. If I’m ever caught outside without my cover, I plan to time my brisk walk to the entrance (no running in uniform) to avoid running into a superior and getting caught in the awkward situation of saluting without a cover. Should this happen, I plan to apologise and explain why I’m out of uniform. The lower ranking member always initiates the salute, so it’s on me whether to salute or not. I’ll follow the adage “if in doubt, whip it out”.
Oh yeah that’s me. As a trained combat engineer who has been to Iraq I can tell you without a doubt The Hurt Locker was a bunch of horseshit. Just tonight I yelled at the TV because they showed a picture of a guy who was supposed to be Special Forces wearing a beret that looked like someone plopped a flour sack on his head.
More than that. Richard Todd was a captain and one of the main officers in charge of the assault on Pegasus Bridge. He served under Major John Howard who commanded the mission. In the movie he played Major Howard and another actor played Captain Todd. It must have been bizarre.
In the US Army we report to the commander the same way Pine said. It’s only done under certain circumstances. Usually when getting chewed out. As an old fart I can say there was another time. When reporting to the pay officer for pay. Used to be that the pay officer would come in with a box of cash and an armed guard. You would step up to the desk, salute, and receive your pay. Then you would get the rest of the day off for “payday activities.” But even as a young private that was going away. Direct deposit was becoming the norm. Soon after it became mandatory.
