Are the result of bad owners.
Prove me wrong.
Lucy
Shouldn’t you be proving yourself correct?
Feral dogs can be vicious and they have no owner, therefore the idea that vicious dogs are only the result of bad owners is demonstrably false. Ipso facto and stuff.
I have owned numerous dogs currently identified as “vicious” breeds over the last 65 years. None of them showed any signs of being vicious. My current love bucket, Thor, is a pit-mix, the second of three pits. Two Shepards, and others that I’ve rescued from shelters over the years, were nearly all surrenders deemed dangerous. Nada, not even one, ever attacked anyone after some very fundamental training.
For the nitpickers, and for the purpose of this thread, I will grant, and you should, too, that feral dogs, wolves, coyotes, and other canids who are not domesticated pets and never subjected to an ‘owner’ were never intended to be covered by my statement.
I am not a professional dog trainer. Just someone who believes that love in = love out.
Lucy
Perhaps, but that doesn’t prove that every vicious dog is the product of a bad owner. Right off the top of my head I can think of two cases where a Pit Bull, one of breeds believed to be violent by many people, suddenly murdered a member of their own family without any apparent cause whatsoever.
Define vicious.
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That’s terribly faulty logic. In its own way it’s exactly the kind of logic that blames a poor mistreated dog for excessive barking. Dogs are, by definition, domesticated animals. Feral dogs are dogs that, like all dogs, have been genetically evolved to be loyal to a loving owner who meets their needs, but due to some misfortune do not. That misfortune may have several possible causes that are no one’s fault, but is very often due to neglect of one kind or another, and possibly abuse. Hence, still the owner’s fault. In the wild, dogs naturally regress to doing whatever they need to do to survive. So would any other animal, including humans.
I might argue that there are general propensities for biting that vary in degree by breed, and that it becomes easier or harder for a dog owner to (nearly) eliminate the likelihood of that dog ever acting aggressively depending on the breed.
I think of it like skiing: not every skier should tackle double black diamond runs (the most challenging), yet … when it comes to dog breeds … everybody seems to think they’re an expert 
This isn’t universally true of dogs any more than it is of people (there are many cases of violent criminals and even serial killers coming from comfortable, loving homes).
Dogs are frequently overbred and can have unpredictable characteristics and behaviors. Without getting deeply into the pitbull minefield, I’m sure there are plenty of stable, loving examples of the breed and its mixes, as well as those properly raised who’ve disastrously acted out with little or no provocation.
“Prove me wrong” is a phrase inimical to the spirit of the Dope.
However many dogs you have owned and successfully trained to be love buckets, that is a vanishingly small sample size compared to the set of all dogs. I think it’s fair to argue that failure to be a properly responsible and careful owner will increase the likelihood of raising a vicious dog; I don’t think it can be reasonably argued that, just because you managed to raise a dozen good doggos, that your method is infallible in all circumstances.
Right. Dogs have a natural tendency to bite. We train them to not do so but it’s still their natural state and not merely the fault of “bad owners”.
I’m referring to dogs that were bred outside of an ownership situation and have thus never had an owner, good or bad. Though, as much as anything, I was just responding to the silly “Prove me wrong” demand.
Many many years ago, we had neighbors who had a German Shepherd that they hoped to show and use for stud. One day when the owner went to feed him, the dog attacked him. The dog had never been abused, in fact, he had a pretty good life for a dog. Unfortunately, because they had 2 small children, they couldn’t risk keeping the dog, and he was put down.
So they got another who was sweet and gentle and goofy, but turns out they couldn’t show him because he had a floppy ear. He was a wonderful pet and they gave up any ideas of using him for stud. And they all lived happily ever after.
Not only that, but when dogs do bite, those generally classified as “vicious”, “dangerous”, or whatever other adjective you want to use do considerably more damage due to their strength, tenacity, lack of fear, and aggressiveness.
Dogs can have genetic defects. So can people. Dogs might bite, people might punch, kick, stab, or shoot. I have no problem with taking all appropriate precautions when dealing with any form of the imperfect biological machines that exist on this planet. My problem is with singling out dogs as some kind of special threat (because “they bite” or for some other equally silly reason).
By way of another anecdote, I had a dog with a nervous temperament that seemed to be genetic. He was not a small dog, either – he was a Bernese Mountain Dog (usually very gentle breeds, BTW) who weighed 190 pounds at his peak. He was never a real threat but in his puppyhood if he stole something to gnaw on like a book, and you tried to take it away from him, he had a tendency to snap and potentially cause an injury. He was perfectly fine once you got it away from him, but the snap was kind of instinctive.
Curing him of this tendency was a long and tedious process. His regular vet was great and the dog and I both got along well with him, but on one occasion when he wasn’t available and we saw a different vet, his recommendation was that the dog was dangerous and should be put down. This is the kind of unthinking over-reaction that really pisses me off. There was no way I was going to do that.
Instead, in addition to normal obedience school, we hired a personal trainer for him who gave us lots of good advice, plus as the dog matured he naturally grew more mellow as well. He was a really beautiful dog, and when we took him for walks sometimes small children walking with their parents would ask if they could pet him. By this point I had no hesitation in saying, “sure!”, so they did, and Bernie sat there with a big smile enjoying the skritches.
We never had another problem with him until the day he died. In his later years he gradually developed a painless but crippling neurological illness. I helped him along as best I could with support harnesses to help him get up, but eventually it was too much for him. One day, lying in a ray of sunshine beside the patio door, he just gave up the will to live. Dogs know when it’s time, usually better than we do. He is still dearly missed. And it angers me to this day that a vet – a trained professional – said that this dog should be killed.
I live in a neighborhood full of pit bulls (and I’ve owned one until he died six weeks ago), and the only person that has died in this neighborhood in the last 40 years was killed by the family’s Labrador Retriever.
Here’s the story. I was in 7th grade at the time and lived a block away. Sad, sad, sad all around.
Your jurisdiction has a definition of viscious dogs.
They are often flawed and strictly based on “Well, he’s a bully type dog”.
I had the most pleasant, sweet looking, adorable Dalmatian rescue. Love bug completely. Up and until another human came into her world.
I had no doubt she would’ve torn someones throat out. Always muzzled when infrequently out. Caged when we had guests.
I loved her and also did not trust her.
We were very careful with her.
She lived a happy life til age 9.
And that’s the thing. Every other dog is a “bully mix” if you squint right. I have a dog in my house right now that I picked up as a stray. Wonderful dog. I can’t for the life of me tell what it is. Pit mix is a good guess. But I could also see shepherd in him. Howls like a hound of some sort at times. Maybe some Rottie in the coloring, but doesn’t have the “butter bean” eyebrows or whatever you wanna call it. Tail curls into a spiral, which is not a pittie thing. Who the hell knows?
I didn’t think pit bulls are more prone to aggression than other dogs, but if they are aggressive, for whatever reason, they do a lot more damage than most dogs. Massive powerful jaws, and a high threshold for pain.
I’ve known lots of pleasant pit bull mixes.
I agree. When they fuck up, they fuck up badly because of their size. The only dogs I’ve ever been bit by were chihuahaus. My assumption – and it could be wrong – is that people don’t police that type of behavior for small dogs as much as big dogs.
We kept her busy. She did an obstacle course we made up. 4 kids and other critters to chase and play with. Long smell chasing walks.
Loved swimming in the pond.
She just had an evil streak. I never tried to train her out of it. It would’ve required volunteers of the human variety. None came forward.
All I could do was restrict who she was around. And take safeguards when I had her out, vet visits mainly.