At what point does video taping of a injured worker become violation of rights? And how can you determine from a video: weight, rotational motion of joints,amount of expressed pain, or limitaions in bending, sitting, and such? I know for a fact that the oppinions of proffesionals vary, having personal experience and still fighting the system on this. However the last four years we have seen an incredible amount of Work Comp. insurances relying heavily upon video taping. Isn’t it possible that videos can be altered? That the “facts” can be misleading? Look at all the magazines, T.V. shows, newspapers, adds, tell me that medical evidence gives us less than what we see. Are not the eyes deceived? And what of taping a person through a window in their own home? Where did our rights to privacy go? “Tell me your thoughts as you gaze at me in the stars.”
Welcome to the board. BTW, Callisto is the name of my boat. It is a woman’s name, (for those who did not know).
My personal opinion is that there is way too much cheating on insurance claims and it drives premiums up for the rest of us who are honest. I doubt the insurance companies are doctoring videos while I do not doubt there are plenty of people presenting bogus claims.
I have no sympathy for someone who is filmed cheating and claims his privacy was invaded. Yeah, and you are stealing my dollars.
An SUV was rear ended a few days ago in from of my house by a tiny car. The damage to both was minimal and yet the SUV driver was claiming he had whiplash and wanted me to be his witness. I told him to go take a long hike off a short pier.
If the allegedly disabled person appears in a public place or a place from which he may be easily seen from a public place such as the street, then it seems he is fair game to be photographed, videoed, etc. If said person is performing tasks which he has claimed disability compensation for, then it’s pretty clear-cut that something isn’t on the level. It gets into grey areas when the nature of the surviellance is intrusive and when the tasks the person is performing are not clearly contradicting the claim of disability.
I was doing some PC upgrade work at a large European insurer. (OS2 to NT4 what fun).
PArt of my duties was to visit each desk after new systems were installed and run through a few tests on configuration.
I was at one guys desk and couldnt help but notice that there was a bunch of photos on the desk.
Being nosy I had a peek while the test were completing.
The photos were wierd. It seemed to all be of this one guy doing some strange stuff. He was hauling a loaded trailer over to a car to be hitched . He was painting the eves of his roof and the finally insult there were a few shots of him later that day on the driving range at his local golf course.
All told a most active individual.
I realised that he was probably a claimant and had been followed by a PI. I asked the desk owner (as we IT folks call ye actual workers)what the story was.
It appeared that the guy had recieved a huge claim after a car accident. He claimed to never be able to work again yadda yadda. Well this boys time was up and proceedings were about to take place.
What amazed me the most though were two things.
1 You can go around and do a full days activities completely oblivious to the fact that you are under close scrutiny
2 The attitude of the guys who were involved in bringing this guy to justice. There was a real high fivin, fuck you attitude about the whole thing.
Filming people in their home without their knowledge is criminal. But, as JCHeckler pointed out, when outside, they are fair game. And the photo’s and video may be evidence of crime. Video can be altered, but convincing alterations would be pricey, and would open up the insurer to massive litigation, punitive damage awards, and criminal charges against employees.
And filming a person water-skiing, or moving furniture would be damning evidence against someone who claims they can’t work do to back pain.
“Filming people in their home without their knowledge is criminal.”-spooje
Spooje, what law is being violated if the filming is being done from public property? I was under the impression (perhaps wrongly) that there is no law against using hidden cameras to film people who believe they are in a private setting as long as the sound is not being recorded. This topic comes up occasionally when someone gets caught secretly filming tennents or co-workers in private. Usually they are only prosecuted for recording the voices as this is specially against the law in most states. Any legal types know the facts?
John
In California you can video people but not audio them.
Some new law just went thru saying cops can’t bring video cameras into private places; but can do it from outside.
Sometimes, though, having the tape doesn’t seem to matter. About 6 years ago, the psycho-money-grubbing whore I used to work with was injured on the job. I was a store manager and sent her (she was in her early 60’s) to buy a case of full size computer paper from Sam’s Club. I specifically told her (and I had a witness) NOT to try and lift it herself and to ask for help. When she returned, she tells me, “I think I hurt my back lifting that paper”. !!!
When I asked why she didn’t ask for help she said she couldn’t find anyone to help her. I said, “Who did you ask?” She said, “The cashier”. I asked, “Since when does the cashier run the place? You should have asked for help at the service desk.” To this, she had no answer.
The next day I get reemed out by the manager (a genuine dickhead, as managers go).
She files for workman’s comp. She was videotaped THREE DAYS LATER loading suitcase into her van AND GETTING INTO A ROWBOAT!!! She ended up getting $35,000!!!
Later, at a manager’s meeting, I stupidly asked the general manager how the old cow was doing. He suggested that I should call her on a regular basis to see how she was doing.
Now, I don’t normally believe in such things as the subconcious working without me, but what I said changed my mind a bit.
I said (in front of four other managers), “I don’t care if the bitch lives or dies!”
What was that? the sound of five jaws dropping to the ground. Four days later, I was fired for “insubordination.”
I lost my unemployment benefits. I could have taked the bastards to court, but decided not to.
In La. you can video tape someone through a window as long as the view is from public property. Example – a P.I. is parked on the street in front of subjects home. The window shades are open and in “plain view” subject performs. What a P.I. can’t do is video tape through a crack in the window or tape the subject while tresspassing (sneaking into back yard) on subjects property. A P.I. can’t “rope” the subject.
This is the practice of setting up the subject, example – subject is on workers comp for a back injurie. P.I. flattens subjects car tire then video tapes him changing the flat.
I correspond with a gal who does insurance fraud investigation for a living. One of the first cases she mentioned to me involved a fella who claimed to have injured his back and legs. She taped him at a local bowling alley, winning a tournament. hehehe…what a dumbass.
Sometimes my company has to get involved with workers comp. cases. When we have to investigate someone who may be lying about an injury, the first thing we do is check the local bowling league records to see if their name is listed. All leagues put out a book every year. If we find our guys name in there we check to see where they bowl and what nights…then we send an investigator to the bowling alley with a hidden camera in a bowling bag! Bowling is a lot more of a physical sport than people think. If you have any significant injury or pain in your hands, wrists, arms, shoulders, back, legs, or neck, bowling is mighty tough to do. And bowlers are dedicated folk. If a guy has a claim for workers comp and he gives up his bowling…well, then you know he’s not faking.
Thank-You all for your insight. Although video taping in my state is the same as CA’s, it’s still hard to believe in an injury cases involving shoulder and joints, (with no lifting or bowlingin the video) that an insurance can take the advice of a PI and not what there own MEDICAL doctors say. Of course, there is always the issue of money and vocational rehab, guess a big money bussiness is willing to fork out a couple thousand in order not to loose. And the hype right now is insurance fraud, but what of those who trully are injured? Justice will have to be the judge in the end. Any sugestions?
Those who are truly injured will not be videotaped lifting weights and so have nothing to fear. The PI just supplies the evidence. He does not make any medical judgment or diagnosis. I get the impression you are trying to drum up some support for those who commit fraud. The video tape does not lie and only goes to contradict what the person is claiming. If you say “I am injured so badly I can hardly move” and you are caught bowling, it serves you right if they throw you in jail for trying to commit fraud.
Video isnt everything. I have a freind who is permenately disabled with a back injury. He has pieces of disk floating around in his spine, and will never be able to work or lead a quote normal life. He sometimes has good days, weeks, even a month or two when he can do mild activity. If during this time, someone were to video tape him doing anthing moderately physiscal, he would be screwed, even though the next week he may be layed up in bed for a month or more. Needless to say, with this kind of instability he couldnt hold a job. I think it should be up to a doctor to make the final call, regardless.
This is why investigators like to do several days of surveillance spread over a course of a few weeks. It helps against the “good day/bad day” claim some cheaters make. If the subject is watch on several different occassions and never once displays any outward indications of injury or difficulty, it’s a good bet he’s pulling a con job.
Ah, yes, FINALLY someone comes into my balliwick! 
For those who don’t know, I spent 10 years working in California as an attorney representing employers and insurers in workers’ compensation claims. Yep, I was one of the people who, when circumstances dictated, arranged for sub rosa investigation of claimants. More often, I reviewed the results of investigations ordered by my clients before I could advise them whether to bother with the effort. I know the answer to this question!
There are three reasons a workers’ compensation benefits claimant will be subjected to sub rosa (that is, undercover) investigation. First, the claimant may have told one or more doctors that their range of motion or their ability to accomplish certain physical activities is limited by the effects of their injury, and the investigation is an attempt to verify or disprove the claim. For instance, a person who tells the doctor that they are unable to bend repetitively because of excrutiating back pain can be impeached by videotaped evidence that they bend and stoop regularly doing something innocuous, like, for instance, bowling (actually, the usual filmed activity is gardening). If the doctors are apprised that the person CAN bend and stoop, it can affect the expert opinion of the doctors as to how much the person should be limited from doing prophylactically (prophylactic restrictions are rateable in CA; other states base permanent disability on ‘whole body’ functionability and similar discussion applies).
Second, the person may be investigated to establish that they are engaged in activities that earn money when they are claiming to be totally temporarily disabled. This is less frequent, and less objectionable usually, because it is either a case of primary fraud or it isn’t.
Finally, undercover investigation may be attempted to uncover something about the person’s activities when the claims adjuster has suspicion about the extent of the claim. Frankly, such fishing expeditions are rarely successful, and I rarely advise a client to engage in such investigation. After all, we really shouldn’t treat each other like potential criminals just because we have a ‘funny feeling’.
I’ve had some interesting results from sub rosa investigation. Usually, it turns up nothing of value. Even when there is filmed evidence of activities seemingly inconsistent with the claims of the claimant, it rarely changes the minds of the doctors in the case. Claimant’s doctor opines the film is meaningless; employer’s doctor opines he/she knew he/she was right all along about the much more limited opinion of disability. The judge/referee sighs and watches the film, then proceeds to ignore it at trial. Oh, certainly, there are times where a liar is exposed, but more often the films show the claimant doing what we all would do with an injury: living with it. And since we in the system all know that the injured worker is likely to exagerate his or her claimed symptoms and limitations to some extent, we don’t really care if they are shown bending over to pick up a bucket of water washing their car.
Sub rosa investigation far more often supports the claimant than disproving the claim. In my most classic case, the adjuster sent me films obtained of someone claiming inability to bend and lift heavy objects. The adjuster claimed that the films showed the claimant pushing a truck and washing the truck. The claimant pushed the truck allright, one hand lightly on the hood while four quite muscular lads did the actual pushing at his direction. And wash the truck he did, with a long-handled brush and never bending over at any point, even to the point of moving the bucket of water around with the mop, rather than lifting it. I advised settlement quickly, before the opposition found out the films existed!
Oh, and the investigation has to be within the limits of what a private investigator is allowed to do within the state and keep his lisence. On at least one occaision in CA, a claim of violation of the right of privacy resulted from an investigation (in CA, the right of privacy is expressly enshrined in the Constitution).