:smack: Certainly.
Either one would be most appreciated. A thread would be more fun, since it would allow for discussion and other viewpoints from people who converted, but then again, we both know what happens to that sort of thread (NOT to your posts!)
The thing about the Temple ceremonies is that because we LDS hold them to be extremely sacred and will not reveal them publicly, the loons, such as “The Resistance” folks, toss out whatever bunk they want to and say that because we don’t specifically prove otherwise, their bunk is fact.
Heh. I saw it when I was a little older, swallowed it whole. As a young adult, tried to pick a fight with some Mormon missionaries.
Oddly enough, now one of my best friends is LDS.
I still think it’s a silly religion.
There are a greater number of posters who are asking that of you, especially with comments such as:
So what are these lies and inaccuracies?
And as others have pointed out, in one church the secrets are total and in other, just one party is prohibited about talking about specifics of what the penant disclosed. These are completely different, and carrying on about it doesn’t change the fact.
You’re wasting your time trying to goad me. I will not respond in kind.
What Da Vinci Didn’t Know: An Lds Perspective addresses that question. Basically, knowledgable LDS don’t buy into the conspiracy theories in Brown’s books.
Welcome to the world of trying to find out what Mormons believe Mr Tokyo; it’s confusing even to the adherents because some of the doctrines and writings have been corrected and changed so much over time that it’s hard to keep up. I’ve seen the video and the only thing that‘s different now is that in 1978 the 12th prophet of the church (Spencer Kimball) had a “revelation” that would allow all worthy male members, including blacks, to hold the Mormon priesthood. Also in 1981 when the Book of Mormon underwent another 200 changes (it has had close to 4000 changes since 1830) at that time 2Nephi30:6 which had previously stated that converted Lamanites (indians) would become “white” after accepting Mormonism, was changed to “pure”. Currently, the church is doing much more than trying to be politically correct on the race issue, but is desperately trying to change its image to look like a real Christian denomination instead of a cult. So trying to get the facts about its true foundations and beliefs from a knowledgeable member is going to be an excercise in futility and frustration. I belive they’re trying to move further towards center and it’s difficult with their history and foundations; it wouldn’t help the cause to reveal the bare historical facts. Joseph Smith laid the foundation for his church by declaring that, according to his vision, all Christian churches were apostate and their creeds were an abomination. Accordingly, he went on to establish numerous anti-Christian and anti-Bible doctrines concerning the nature of God (God was once a man), salvation (by works), the Trinity (it’s an invention of the apostate church), leadership of the church (the Mormon prophet leads, not the Holy Spirit), numerous extra-Biblical writings, and an amazing assortment of science-fiction like doctrines like the pre-existence of humans on other planets, the ability of man to become a god, etc. There’s all this and more, without even mentioning things like polygamy and blood atonement (some sins require the shedding of your own blood). The LDS church was begun with the intention of supplanting every other Christian denomination and considering its current attempt to put on a new face, it appears to have taken a “can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em attitude”. But to really become Christian, I’m not sure how many of its antithetical doctrines it’s really willing to give up. Only time will tell.
There is always the question if the adherents won’t answer because they don’t know what is accurate and what is not. I’m not sure in this case, but the thought had crossed my mind.
Which is interesting, because the church had spent so much time establishing how different it was.
The Trinity was really criticized by the Mormon church, and used to be slammed in the temple ceremony. Although I haven’t been to the temple since the large changes were made in around 1990, this part apparently has been deleted.
The pre-existance of humans on other planets is misleading. The belief is that there are other worlds with their own gods.
The ability of man to become gods and that God the Father was a man himself, is one of the largest doctrinal differences with mainstream Christianity, along with the disbelief in salvation through grace.
Personally, I believe that blood atonement is overrated. There seems to have been some isolated cases of applying it directly, but it wasn’t stessed as much as many enemies of the church would have you believe. We weren’t taught that much about it, but it was discussed.
It will be interesting.
They have never backed off on Joseph Smith’s statement in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (p370,372), “Many men say there is one God: the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow - three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization…All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God - he would be a giant or a monster.”
The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, volume 1 (“Agency”) states, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that every person experiences a series of “births”. All were born as spirit children of God in a premortal life.”
And in the LDS handbook Gospel Principles it states, “Because our Heavenly Father chose Jesus Christ to be our Saviour, Satan became angry and rebelled. There was war in heaven. Satan and his followers fought against Jesus and his followers. In this great rebellion, Satan and all the spirits who followed him were sent away from the presence of God and cast down from heaven. One-third of the spirits in heaven were punished for following Satan: they were denied the right to receive mortal bodies. Because we are here on earth and have mortal bodies, we know that we chose to follow Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father… In our premortal life, we chose the right.”
You’re no fun anymore! 
[bolding mine]
There are four general meanings of the word cult as it is used in American English.
as a direct cognate translation of the Latin cultus, meaning any well-organized set of religious beliefs. In this sense, all the various sects and denominations of Christianity and Islam could each be called cults, as could Judaism, the Hinduism, etc.
any religious group with a strong connection to a living or recently-deceased leader. In this case the LDS could be called a cult only up until the death of Brigham Young, at which point the direct connection to Joseph Smith was broken. On the other hand, Christianity would be a cult of Jesus, in this sense, until the death of the first generation of Apostles.
a nominally religious-based group enforcing control over all aspects of the lives of its adherents in the manner of Jim Jones, etc.
any religious group opposed by various fundie groups.
Clearly, your use of the word “cult” is intended to rely on definition #4 rather than on any meaningful definition.
Actually, Mormons do not disbelieve in salvation through grace.
Well, just I hope you don’t believe in salvation through faith, 'cause that’s totally fucked. No matter what the faith.
We don’t believe in salvation through grace alone, BrainGlutton.Here’s a good explanation.
I did not mean that they have retreated from their beliefs in a separate form of the godhood than in mainstream Christianity. What I intended to say was that they are retreating from attacking the traditional concept of the trinity in the temple. There is no indication that they are accepting the trinity, but they are less vocal in their oposition. In fact, there are references now to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, which was never said when I was a Mormon.
Further clarification. Mormons believe in the preexistence and having been spiritually born to Heavenly Father and the Heavenly Mother(s). God lives on a planet near the Kokaubeam, or star, named Kolab, one day of reckoning if it is is 1,000 years of this world. I was only objecting to the plural of planets, God lives near Kolab, but there is no indication that multiple planets are involved.
With the same definition which mainstream Protestants use, or does this require a special definition or additional clauses for Mormons?
It merely requires an ability to read and understand the English language and to actually pay attention to the Church’s actual teaching on the matter.
Let me do a correction here- yeah, I have major problems w/ certain LDS doctrines & practices.
On the other hand, I also recognize that most LDS members are my allies in America’s cultural-political controversies. Reading LDS sites like Meridian Magazine, I also realize that spiritually, we are kindred.
I can’t downplay the fact that we differ radically on something as essential as the Nature of God, and our nature as His creations & children. I also can’t ignore that such a difference is downplayed by most LDS missionaries I’ve encounter in a way I consider nigh deceptive.
But most LDS folk I’ve met love God/Jesus & revere the Bible as His written revelation, and I dismiss that. We can debate & even argue on exactly how that works out. We can even try to convert each other. But I hate to see this degenerate into accusations & counter-accusations. I used to play that game before & I can still lapse all too easily into it.
So right now, I offer a truce. I would still like to know what Monty regards as outright lies in the video in Q, however.
Since I’m the one that used the term I’ll give my definition, while noting the fact that you have added nothing of any substance to the thread and have apparently interjected this only to satisfy some deep need to engage in more name-calling in the guise of “moderating”. You even cast aspersions on Christ Himself by including Him in some bizarre definition of the term - your hypocrisy and contempt for Christ and those who follow Him is apparently boundless.
There are only two substantive definitions of a cult:
1.A religious or quasi-religious group whose members are almost entirely controlled by a single individual or organization. This type demands total commitment from its followers and they are usually cut off from all other associations, including their own families; the cult becomes their new family. Examples are Hare Krishnas and Sun Myung’s Unification Church.
2. Any group that deviates from the orthodox teachings of the historic Christian faith as based on the Bible. These groups deny or distort Christian doctrines such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and salvation by faith alone. Although many times they use the same terminology as orthodox Christians, their definitions are vastly different. They offer a different gospel and a different Christ, and therefore must be rejected according to the Scriptures (2Cor11:2-4 and Gal1:6-8). Examples of this besides Mormonism, are Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Science, and the Way International.
Mormonism, established by Joseph Smith as an alternative to orthodox Christianity, easily and willingly fits into the second group with such contrary teachings as: God was once a man, God the Father has many wives (and lives on a planet near the star Koleb), Jesus was Lucifer’s brother, we are saved by grace after we have done all we can, etc. These doctrines, and many other doctrines and practices places Mormonism far outside any similarity to the church established by Christ, it should therefore be considered a cult and it should be avoided.
Heck, LDS doctrine is almost universalist- so of course, it upholds salvation by grace, but exaltation by works. And so does all but the most antinomian forms of Christianity.
To actually answer your question concerning Mormon beliefs about salvation, Mr Tokyo, the Book of Mormon teaches that “we are saved by grace, after all we can do.” (2Ne25:23, 11:44). It’s grace plus works = salvation instead of grace plus faith =salvation which will then result in works (as the Bible teaches).