Video: What Mormon theology is really all about

[Monty]

FriarTed: “Endless celestial sex.” That’s not a teaching of the Church.

[QUOTE=Bible man]
Since I’m the one that used the term I’ll give my definition,
[/quote]

Perhaps it would help if you were to give your audience a list of your spiffy new definitions before you expect them to understand them.

while noting the fact that you have added nothing of any substance to the thread

A good moderating call is usually something I would consider of substance to a thread on these boards.

and have apparently interjected this only to satisfy some deep need to engage in more name-calling in the guise of “moderating”.

In what name calling did said moderator engage?

You even cast aspersions on Christ Himself by including Him in some bizarre definition of the term - your hypocrisy and contempt for Christ and those who follow Him is apparently boundless.

Huh?

There are only two substantive definitions of a cult:
1.A religious or quasi-religious group whose members are almost entirely controlled by a single individual or organization. This type demands total commitment from its followers and they are usually cut off from all other associations, including their own families; the cult becomes their new family. Examples are Hare Krishnas and Sun Myung’s Unification Church.

On what authority do you make that ridiculous claim about a word commonly used in the English language?

2. Any group that deviates from the orthodox teachings of the historic Christian faith as based on the Bible. These groups deny or distort Christian doctrines such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and salvation by faith alone. Although many times they use the same terminology as orthodox Christians, their definitions are vastly different. They offer a different gospel and a different Christ, and therefore must be rejected according to the Scriptures (2Cor11:2-4 and Gal1:6-8). Examples of this besides Mormonism, are Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Science, and the Way International.

That’s not a substantive definition of the word in the English language.

Mormonism, established by Joseph Smith as an alternative to orthodox Christianity, easily and willingly fits into the second group with such contrary teachings as: God was once a man, God the Father has many wives (and lives on a planet near the star Koleb), Jesus was Lucifer’s brother, we are saved by grace after we have done all we can, etc. These doctrines, and many other doctrines and practices places Mormonism far outside any similarity to the church established by Christ, it should therefore be considered a cult and it should be avoided.

Very good. You have now shown that you know exactly zero about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[TokyoBayer]

@Monty

Actually, Mormons do not disbelieve in salvation through grace.

[QUOTE=me]
With the same definition which mainstream Protestants use, or does this require a special definition or additional clauses for Mormons?
[/QUOTE]

This is a disingenuous argument. We both know the answer, which is why I’m calling you on it.

[QUOTE=Monty]
It merely requires an ability to read and understand the English language and to actually pay attention to the Church’s actual teaching on the matter.
[/QUOTE]

Sarcasm noted.

[QUOTE=Monty]
We don’t believe in salvation through grace alone, BrainGlutton.Here’s a good explanation.
[/QUOTE]
Yep. This is one of, if not the largest difference with mainstream Protestants and the reason given by my sister’s new church for not recognizing her Mormon baptism as valid in her church, where they accept baptisms from other churchs.

[QUOTE=FriarTed]
So right now, I offer a truce. I would still like to know what Monty regards as outright lies in the video in Q, however.
[/QUOTE]
Goad away, I would like to see what he / she has to say as well.

[Bible_man]

[QUOTE=Monty]
Very good. You have now shown that you know exactly zero about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
[/QUOTE]

Somebody had to try and do your job for you, Monty. Most people are willing to drone on and on about their beliefs, you seem unable to answer any questions. Tell us about it:
Statement purported to be a Mormon belief: God was once a man.
Montys answer:
Statement purported to be a Mormon belief: God the Father has many wives and lives on a planet near the star Koleb.
Monty’s answer:
Statement purported to be a Mormon belief: Jesus was Lucifer’s brother not the Creator God
Monty’s answer:
Statement purported to be a Mormon belief: Black-skinned people are of inferior origin.
Monty’s answer:
Statement purported to be a Mormon belief: We are saved by grace, after we have done all we can.
Monty’s answer:

And don’t worry about my posts directed at Tom. It was a fairly standard exchange - I tell him the truth and he’ll come back and call me a liar. No cause for you to get your temple undergarments in a knot.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

Would I be correct to say Mormons do not believe in evolution ?

[OneCentStamp]

BibleMan, let me take a stab at these. While I am no longer Mormon, I was for 25 years, served a full-time mission, attended BYU, and consider myself well versed in LDS doctrine. Monty is welcome to come along and disagree with me.

Statement purported to be a Mormon belief: God was once a man.
OneCentStamp’s answer: Yes, absolutely. Joseph Smith said so in as many words.
Statement purported to be a Mormon belief: God the Father has many wives and lives on a planet near the star Koleb.
OneCentStamp’s answer: Mormons definitely believe that God the Father lives on a planet near the star Kolob (note the spelling correction). As to the many wives part, it was speculated by several early LDS apostles, but AFAIK never became a part of the official doctrine.
Statement purported to be a Mormon belief: Jesus was Lucifer’s brother not the Creator God
OneCentStamp’s answer: Jesus was the Creator of the world, but did so under the direction of God the Father, whom Mormons hold to be a separate entity. Jesus and Lucifer are brothers only in the sense that you and I are Jesus’ brothers: i.e. we are all spirit chidren of God.
Statement purported to be a Mormon belief: Black-skinned people are of inferior origin.
OneCentStamp’s answer: The Church never made an official doctrine of this. However, it was pretty much universally believed by Mormons until 30-40 years ago. To those who will demand a cite, I humbly offer Bruce R. McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine, and my own and my family’s experiences in the Mormon Church.
Statement purported to be a Mormon belief: We are saved by grace, after we have done all we can.
OneCentStamp’s answer: Yes, as has been quoted from the Book of Mormon above.

[TokyoBayer]

[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman]
Would I be correct to say Mormons do not believe in evolution ?
[/QUOTE]
You would be correct.

[Bible_man]

[QUOTE=OneCentStamp]
BibleMan, let me take a stab at these. While I am no longer Mormon, I was for 25 years, served a full-time mission, attended BYU, and consider myself well versed in LDS doctrine. Monty is welcome to come along and disagree with me.

Statement purported to be a Mormon belief: God was once a man.
OneCentStamp’s answer: Yes, absolutely. Joseph Smith said so in as many words.
Statement purported to be a Mormon belief: God the Father has many wives and lives on a planet near the star Koleb.
OneCentStamp’s answer: Mormons definitely believe that God the Father lives on a planet near the star Kolob (note the spelling correction). As to the many wives part, it was speculated by several early LDS apostles, but AFAIK never became a part of the official doctrine.
Statement purported to be a Mormon belief: Jesus was Lucifer’s brother not the Creator God
OneCentStamp’s answer: Jesus was the Creator of the world, but did so under the direction of God the Father, whom Mormons hold to be a separate entity. Jesus and Lucifer are brothers only in the sense that you and I are Jesus’ brothers: i.e. we are all spirit chidren of God.
Statement purported to be a Mormon belief: Black-skinned people are of inferior origin.
OneCentStamp’s answer: The Church never made an official doctrine of this. However, it was pretty much universally believed by Mormons until 30-40 years ago. To those who will demand a cite, I humbly offer Bruce R. McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine, and my own and my family’s experiences in the Mormon Church.
Statement purported to be a Mormon belief: We are saved by grace, after we have done all we can.
OneCentStamp’s answer: Yes, as has been quoted from the Book of Mormon above.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the reply and the clarifications. From what I gather, either the leadership is currently trying to move away from these and other extreme teachings to a more orthodox position, or simply trying to bury them and focus on the positives about the church ie, family values, work ethic, patriotism, etc.

[OneCentStamp]

[QUOTE=Bible man]
Thanks for the reply and the clarifications. From what I gather, either the leadership is currently trying to move away from these and other extreme teachings to a more orthodox position, or simply trying to bury them and focus on the positives about the church ie, family values, work ethic, patriotism, etc.
[/QUOTE]

There are some of them that the church really isn’t even trying to distance itself from. The idea that God was once a man, and that humans may become gods, is still central to the Mormon idea of salvation. It’s still openly taught and discussed. I honestly can’t imagine it ever changing; we’re talking about a vital cog in the Mormon universe, not some peripheral detail like “a” vs. “the” or the cut of an undergarment. Other things, like old attitudes about black people, have really gone by the wayside.

[Subway_Prophet]

[QUOTE=TokyoPlayer]
You would be correct.
[/QUOTE]

I believe in evolution. I haven’t been shunned from the church BBQs for it either.

[BrainGlutton]

So, do Mormons really believe there are many gods, one for every planet, and this “Elohim” is not the God of the whole Universe but only of Earth?

[OneCentStamp]

[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
So, do Mormons really believe there are many gods, one for every planet, and this “Elohim” is not the God of the whole Universe but only of Earth?
[/QUOTE]

Not for every single planet (e.g. there isn’t a god for Neptune because there aren’t any people there AFAWK), but for every planet with humans on it. And Elohim is our God, but there are others, and Elohim Himself was once a man on another planet, governed by another god. What happened to that god is anyone’s guess: perhaps there’s some type of retirement. For that matter, I haven’t heard much speculation on what will happen to our God after this earth is “done” (i.e. Jesus back, Satan defeated, people resurrected and judged).

[Monty]

[QUOTE=Bible man]
Somebody had to try and do your job for you, Monty.
[/quote]

Care to explain that comment?

Most people are willing to drone on and on about their beliefs, you seem unable to answer any questions.

Only a complete illiterate would make such an assertion after seeing my posts on the subject on these boards over the years.

And don’t worry about my posts directed at Tom. It was a fairly standard exchange - I tell him the truth and he’ll come back and call me a liar. No cause for you to get your temple undergarments in a knot.

This rude comment of yours has been reported to the moderator.

[TokyoBayer]

[QUOTE=OneCentStamp]
Not for every single planet (e.g. there isn’t a god for Neptune because there aren’t any people there AFAWK), but for every planet with humans on it. And Elohim is our God, but there are others, and Elohim Himself was once a man on another planet, governed by another god. What happened to that god is anyone’s guess: perhaps there’s some type of retirement. For that matter, I haven’t heard much speculation on what will happen to our God after this earth is “done” (i.e. Jesus back, Satan defeated, people resurrected and judged).
[/QUOTE]
Elohim and Jesus are gods of an unspecified number of other worlds, which Jesus’ sacrifice in this world was able to work for them in the other worlds.

As far as the faithful becoming gods after the judgement, one has to assume that there must be additional training since few people seem likely to be able to get drafted out of high school, as it were.

However, with the whole God and man aspect, to quote the current President of the church about this theology, “we don’t know a lot.”

@Subway Prophet

I believe in evolution. I haven’t been shunned from the church BBQs for it either.

Mormonism has changed considerably since I was a member up until the mid 80s. A belief in evolution would not be accepted then, although I do have Mormon friends who concede this now.

A typical teaching from when I was still a Mormon:

[QUOTE=Boyd K. Packer, “The Pattern of Our Parentage,” Ensign, Nov. 1984, 66 ]
After Their Own Kind
No lesson is more manifest in nature than that all living things do as the Lord commanded in the Creation. They reproduce “after their own kind.” (See Moses 2:12, 24.) They follow the pattern of their parentage. Everyone knows that; every four-year-old knows that! A bird will not become an animal nor a fish. A mammal will not beget reptiles, nor “do men gather … figs of thistles.” (Matt. 7:16.)

In the countless billions of opportunities in the reproduction of living things, one kind does not beget another. If a species ever does cross, the offspring cannot reproduce. The pattern for all life is the pattern of the parentage.

This is demonstrated in so many obvious ways, even an ordinary mind should understand it. Surely no one with reverence for God could believe that His children evolved from slime or from reptiles. (Although one can easily imagine that those who accept the theory of evolution don’t show much enthusiasm for genealogical research!) The theory of evolution, and it is a theory, will have an entirely different dimension when the workings of God in creation are fully revealed.
[/QUOTE]

I notice that the teachings have changed considerably since then. From a recent article in a magazine aimed at the youth, they address how to handle evolution:

[QUOTE=New Era]
I said, “I know there is a God, and He has a Son who created the world and saved us all. Whether or not we have all the answers now doesn’t discredit the fact that there is a God. God works line upon line and precept upon precept. Until we prove our faith, God will not reveal more to us.”
[/QUOTE]

[tomndebb]

[QUOTE=Bible man]
No cause for you to get your temple undergarments in a knot.
[/QUOTE]
The entire post (most of which I have omitted) was simply a cheap shot that (in your words) “added nothing of any substance to the thread.” This particular statement is a direct personal insult directed at another poster.

You will stop doing this sort of personal attack, one way or another.

[ /Moderating ]

[FriarTed]

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
The entire post (most of which I have omitted) was simply a cheap shot that (in your words) “added nothing of any substance to the thread.” This particular statement is a direct personal insult directed at another poster.

You will stop doing this sort of personal attack, one way or another.

[ /Moderating ]
[/QUOTE]

This is the sort of thing I was hoping to avoid by calling a truce.

[tomndebb]

[QUOTE=FriarTed]
This is the sort of thing I was hoping to avoid by calling a truce.
[/QUOTE]
I support a truce. I do not even care who participates in the thread (despite the fact that every discussion of the LDS turns rancorous).
I am not looking to shut down the discussion among those who can maintain a level of civility, regardless how passionately they feel the “other side” errs.
However, personal insults are not permitted, (and are the personal responsibility of those who hurl them).