Vietnam? How they doin' these days?

Great Debates
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Fellow Dopers, I watched the film “The Quiet American” on Saturday night with Mrs Boo Boo. Now, it kicked off a number of Vietnam related questions which go beyond yor normal “Cafe Society” kinda film review thread.

(1) I don’t really know if the book was better than the film. Don’t really care. The film was pretty bloody good as far as I was concerned.

(2) The film explained very subtly how the Vietnam problem went from being a “French problem” to being an “American problem”… That’s always been a bit of grey area for me. After watching the film, Grahame Greene’s assertion is that the Americans effectively went “looking to stick their nose in it”. Opinions?

(3) Ho Chi Minh? He didn’t get mentioned much in the film - save for the fact that he existed and he was the head of the “Communists”. But my understanding is that Ho Chi Minh in reality was actually head of the “Independance Movement” who chose to refer to themselves as “Communists”. Was he a good guy or a scumbag? Or somewhere in between? Would his cause have been better served if they had had the foresight to NOT refer to themselves as “Communists” but rather, say, the “Democratic Independance Movement of Vietnam”?

(4) Greene essentially asserted that the US really went out of it’s way to look for trouble. He asserted that the CIA covertly funded the “3rd Front” which was headed by a General Tai? And that this General Tai actually embarked upon a deliberate campaign of atrocities and massacres of innocent civilians throughout Vietnam in the mid/late 1950’s with the goal of deliberately painting the “Communists” to be way, way, worse than they really were - and the CIA knew this, and directly sponsored it because it would act as the stimulii necessary to sway US internal public opinion to actively fight the “Communist Scourge” which was on the march through South East Asia. Fanciful or fact?

(5) Would Vietnam, and the USA, with hindsight, have been better off if the USA had never gotten involved? Indeed this question affects Australia and New Zealand too because I believe we sent a total of 50,000 troops there during an 8 year period as part of our mutual defense treaty with the United States. Would Vietnam simply have been able to get on with their goals in life, namely independant non-colonial rule, so much earlier with so much less bloodshed?

(6) How’s Vietnam doing nowadays? Are they a bunch of ratbags or are they OK?

(7) Assuming you’re well enough informed with the benefit of hindsight, what would YOU have done differently if you were either Lyndon Johnson or Ho Chi Minh?

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3- I don’t know about him personally, but his regime was abusive of human rights and utilized “re-education” camps. Definitely not a good sign.

6- Still plagued with poverty, and the government still jails people for dissenting beliefs, although they aren’t nearly as repressive as, for instance, the DPRK. Think Cuba or Laos, if that helps.

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A little of both. First some background. Traditionally Vietnam has been ruled by establishing a solid presence in the north and then gaining influence in the south by “bribing” (not necessarily with money) the various cults and tribes which dominate the area. That’s how the French did it originally, it’s how the Japanese did it and it’s how the French did it again after WWII. And it’s sort of how the communists did it, if you think about it.

General The was a lesser leader with a Bhuddist sect called the Cao Dai. The Cao Dai were primarily a pro-independence group. Following the Japanese invasion they sided with Japan against the French and after the Japanese surrendered they sided with the Viet Minh.

When France returned and overthrew the Viet Minh government the Cao Dai found themselves in a tight spot. The French attacked them because of their opposition and the Viet Minh also attacked them because this seemed a good opportunity to get rid of a group which might compete for the loyalty of pro-independence Vietnamese. By 1946 the Cao Dai had signed a sort of truce with France, but it would be an exaggeration to suggest that they were under French control.

Throughout the first half of the 50s the Cao Dai, the Viet Minh and a number of other groups were fighting it out in the southern half of the country and they needed no encouragement from the US or France. In 1954 the French and the Viet Minh agreed to partition the country and at that point the French were forced to make some real agreements with the Cao Dai, basically including them in the government. But General The was killed in 1955, so the movie must be speaking of the early 50s.

So……some points……………

General The did commit a number of atrocities in those years. (Though your description sounds a little exaggerated)

His goal was to increase the influence of the Cao Dai.

My understanding is that the Cao Dai wanted “credit” for what they did and therefore did not generally blame anyone else.

The Viet Minh were committing atrocities by the basketful so we didn’t need to manufacture any; on the other hand it may have seemed wise to just blame everything on the commies cause………well…….why not?

The CIA was accused at the time of supporting the Cao Dai and similar groups but it has never been proved.

The CIA probably did have at least some dealings with the Cao Dai because, like it or not, that’s their job.

The US was not, by any means, running the show in Vietnam in the early 50s.

I hope this is at least half-way coherent and I haven’t seen the movie so, if I’ve missed the point, sorry.

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Great posts Daoloth and Zigaretten… great posts!

Keep 'em coming guys.

With hindsight, I suspect the film actually protrayed things pretty objectively but there was a lot going on which I didn’t understand and as such, it was pretty easy to get lost. Indeed, Mrs Boo Boo and I stopped the film a number of times to try and get a handle on what was going on. The film never actually explicity mentioned a date, but to offer a helping hand, apparently it was set precisely at the time when the CIA changed it’s name from it’s former incarnation known as the OSS.

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LINK to CIA World Factbook Reference Page On Vietnam

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Thanks Bosda. I know we went head to head in another thread the other day, but I make a point of being grateful whenever anyone contributes to one of the rare threads that I, myself, create. Thank you very much. And for what it’s worth, it was only a very small thing we disagreed on. There’s so much more to this world than just one little thread I rather think.