Next to Helter Skelter, that was my favorite book by him.
I read online, Criminalminds.com(???) that Manson wasn’t the Svengali that Bugliosi had painted him to be; Bugliosi’s personality, style, and drugged-up hippiesluts created the mind-control story, and the jury was quite happy to buy into it. IOW, Manson was framed.
By Bugliosi.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who, reading this thread’s title, immediately heard Bauhaus singing it.
The bats have left the belltower.
I’m curious if you have read Helter Skelter. When Manson carved an X in his forehead (later turned into a swastika) and his followers immediately follow suit, it certainly suggests that he had control over them.
I’m typing on my phone, so it’s hard to write a long synopsis, but that’s just one example of the outlandish behavior that surrounded the trial. Manson was undoubtedly a psychopath with a lengthy criminal past, and his Family members were undoubtedly young, easily manipulated wayward kids.
It’s possible that VB… “polished” the Manson-as-Svengali tale, but he did not make it up and many people testified to examples of Manson’s cult-level control of his followers. He was/is extremely intelligent and charismatic and chose his followers for their malleability (those who weren’t complete play-doh were pushed out or left… or killed) and then isolated them so he was their sole influence.
You could make that pretty lurid, but you don’t have to make it up.
Well, sure, free pussy and good drugs, who wouldn’t use that kind of system; but, what I’m saying is that the site that I read indicated (per my memory…read it about 10 years ago) that there wasn’t any real motivation for the murders. The thesis was that Charlie had a group of co-druggies/zonkers, and sent people over to Terry Melcher’s place, to either kick his ass/rob him, so they’d have dope money, or something, who knows what, and the freaks went zonkers on the Tate group. Bugliosi, looking for a good motive, pieced their dumbass acid laced ramblings into some narrative of his own devising. Charlie didn’t send them to start the Helter Skelter stuff, he sent them for whatever, and Manson had no interest in kicking off the apocalypse stuff. The stuff that they wrote on the walls was some nonsense that was in their acid addled brains, not something of CM’s concoction.
There was more to it on the site, and, the case he made was leagues above my presentation, but, it also had some stuff IIRC such as NOBODY thought that VB was even serious about the Helter Skelter stuff, but, the power of his talents in a courtroom and his imagination were what got the convictions, not the truth of his assertions.
Please. Charlie did it from prison.
“In Defense of Charles Manson”
Yes, to those who have been through this with me: I’m dragging this old blog entry out again.
You do love a good conspiracy, don’t you? I trust you realize that “I read about it somewhere on the internet” is not a compelling argument.
So, the words Helter Skelter, written in blood on the walls, had nothing to do with “the Helter Skelter” stuff?
I would be interested in seeing that website, if you can find it.
You wrote that blog? You must be very proud.
Interesting that you ignored that LaBianca murders, when Manson drove to the house and tied up the victims. No sir, he was never involved…the 23 year old kid from Texas ran the whole show, not the man who had followers believing he was some kind of Messiah.
Who testified, and what evidence is there, that Manson went into the LaBianca’s first and tied up the victims for Tex and the girls to kill?
I’m not saying there isn’t any, but I know it’s not included in all accounts.
And I sold 43 books on and/or by the Manson Family because I needed the bucks, and now I can’t get back all my original research…
I do agree that if Charlie went the second night then he is culpable in that case. Of conspiracy. I’m not saying Manson is guiltless in any of this. But I believe that the association between him and the murders is looser than say, Tex Watson and the murders. And that the politics of the times built up this uber monster, Manson, when really there is less mystique about it all–the media creates uber-persons around persons that get into the Zeitgeist, for their own purposes and for the purposes of the politics in power.
I don’t buy that. What Manson did was classic brainwashing. Isolate people, keep them away from TV, or other media (in Helter Skelter, Bugliosi reports that there was a TV or radio on the ranch, so family members heard the victim’s names – so either deny them all access to media, or severely control access), preach at them all day and all night, drug them.
It’s not dissimilar to Jim Jones and Jonestown–except that Manson’s Family didn’t commit suicide, they committed murder.
Am I reading that right? You’re saying that Manson didn’t do the classic brainwashing trick of restricting TV?
Why no, I didn’t. I guess I’ll have to take back my briefs from the International Court of Justice in the Hague. A pity I didn’t have you around when they issued the warrants.
Listen, what is in your head? Did you even read the rest of the post, or were you just so excited when you saw “I read…internet” that you just started to spout tired, obvious cliches?
And, where’s the fucking conspiracy that I’m alleging?
Get a life, or a book. Live one, read the other.
nothing here to see
Keeping them away from TV is brainwashing??? lol
My whole point/interpretation of the article was that you/we only think of it being a classic case of brainwashing is because it was given to you/us. At the time, Bugliosi didn’t have a motive…a bunch of g-d druggie addicts, hippies all, enemies of society, slaughtered 10 people-the DA is in need of convictions; and, w/o a motive, there is a weaker chance of conviction.
So, a DA patches together a motive from the ramblings of the perps, congenital idiots, with jillions of acid trips behind them, who all live together in a communal type of existence, dropped out from society. with a sort of ‘leader’…what good citizen is going to say that the DA is even close to mistaken?
Back then, to say that you had even taken acid once was enough to get you fired from any job in the country, because everybody knew that you could freak out and go postal if you were experiencing a ‘flashback’.
I lived it, watching the TV accounts daily. Just because they did that didn’t mean that Manson had Svengali status.
Go to a rally when all of the people yell the same chant: is there a cult leader there?
Handsomeharry, I started a thread on Manson’s guilt here, so as not to derail this thread on Bugliosi. I’d love it if you weighed in.
I sense sarcasm. Cites would be appreciated instead.
I find true crime stories fascinating, mainly because it’s interesting to see how the investigators are able to piece together the facts based on the clues and information they uncover. The Manson case is a particularly apt example.
Not only did I read the rest of your post, I quoted it. Perhaps you could do the same with my statements, and point out which ones are “tired, obvious clichés”.
Or, even better, perhaps you could reply to my criticism of your dismissing “The stuff that they wrote on the walls was some nonsense that was in their acid addled brains, not something of CM’s concoction.” If so, then why did they write Helter Skelter (actually, “Healter Skelter” - Patricia Krenwinkel couldn’t spell) on the LaBianca’s refrigerator? And why did they write other words (i.e. “war” “rise” “death to pigs”) that evoke the imagery of Manson’s Black/white race war?
You’re right, and I’m sorry. I shouldn’t have said conspiracy, which typically refers to an agreement between two or more people to commit a crime. I should have said Conspiracy Theory (popularly abbreviated on these boards as CT), which refers to a belief that there is a hidden meaning or agenda behind notorious events that only those with a special insight can distill. In my earlier encounters with you (I wondered why your name was familiar when I read your posts), I recall that you believed that JFK was killed by some unnamed people. Now, you believe that Charles Manson was, in your words, “framed.”
Cute. Do you have any books that you suggest I read? I mentioned 4 in this thread alone…I enjoy reading non-fiction, so I’d like your suggestion.
Why is this funny? Do you disagree that restricting access to information and/or the outside world is one of the ways that a cult leader controls his flock? When they are dependent on him for information, it is easier for him to manipulate them to believe what he says is gospel.
Do you have any reason, besides your incredulity, to think that the brainwashing theory was incorrect? If, as you say, Bugliosi needed a motive to increase his chance of conviction, then why would he concoct such an outlandish one? Why not just make it a basic botched robbery, or a revenge murder?
I’m guessing the reason that he didn’t do so is because there was no evidence to support it. Manson already knew that Terry Melcher wasn’t living at the Tate house, since he had visited and been told by those that were there that he had left. The only connection to the LaBiance house that he had was that he had previously attended parties at the neighbor’s house. And there were valuable items that were left behind, undercutting a theory that this was about money. Nor does any of that explain the brutality and cryptic messaging that accompanied the murders. If Bugliosi had pursued such flawed theories, he would have bolstered the defenses’ case.
What does this have to do with your argument? If you are suggesting that the attitudes about LSD at the time were overblown (which I happen to agree with), aren’t you undermining your own claim that the “the freaks went zonkers” and had “acid addled brains”?
You watched the TV accounts daily? Maybe that was your problem, since the trial wasn’t broadcast. But I take you at your word that you were keeping up with the news; what did you make of Linda Kasabian testifyingthat Manson was a “messiah”?
This quote refers to my observation that Manson’s followers (both his co-defendants and the Family members keeping vigil outside) carved X’s on their foreheads after Manson did so.
If that doesn’t mean he was a Svengali, what about the words of the other murderers? In the 45 years since the trial, there’s been a lot more said.
Leslie Van Houten, for example, has discussedManson’s Helter Skelter theory and her acceptance of it. Google any interview with any of the participants and you will find similar stories of their devotion to Manson.
Hell, even Manson himself has saidthat he is a “messenger” for god and “10 times the pope; 50 times the pope.” His proselytizing doesn’t come out of left field.
That’s a pretty weak analogy to the murders; are you saying that this was a spontaneous decision by some of the members of the Family, devoid of any planning?
But, to your point, if there is a rally and someone on a stage is directing the chants, then he is definitely leading them to some degree; whether their devotion is cult-like remains to be seen. I would suggest, though, that if this person began carving symbols into his face, and the rest of the group followed suit, then, yeah, he’s a cult leader.
I’ve just seen this thread again, and Moriarty addressed a couple of points that were aimed at me.
For myself, yes, restricting access to information is part of brainwashing, as posted above. Control the message.
Manson was many years older than his followers, in some cases, nearly twice their age. It’s natural they would look up to him, since he told them what they wanted to hear.
No, I’m saying the opposite. He did restrict it. He kept the Family from seeing calendars, and while he may not have prohibited things like TV, radio, and newspapers, he strictly controlled what the found out about.
Testimony given says that he controlled who got LSD, and how much and when, he gave speeches/lectures/rants about what was going to happen.
It’s obvious he was in control.
For tapu and anyone else who thinks Watson was the mastermind behind the murders, would you please tell me what his motive was? Because I’ve never heard it. Why the Tate house? Manson’s reason wasn’t just the race war, but he wanted revenge on Terry Melcher and what Melcher symbolized. At least Bugliosi’s version of the motive makes sense. It’s psychotic, but it makes sense. I’ve never heard of Watson’s motive, so please tell me.
A perfect example of this is a music concert. How many times have you seen the band encourage the audience to clap their hands, wave their arms, sing a particular chorus?
The difference of course, is the band at a concert isn’t a cult, but my point is that I agree with Moriarty about someone onstage being a leader. Context though is key.
I only have a minute to respond, so, I’ll go with the Healter Skelter thing, right now.
Druggies have Helter Skelter in their heads. Druggies have a lot of good drugs in their bodies. Now, they are (per hh’s theory) murdering people because of the bloodlust that accompanies a violent attack, which they have perpetrated against Tate et al.
Bloodlust, Beatles music and some really, really good drugs. Nonsense that they heard from CM about Helter Skelter. Blood all around. Oh, also, free spirits and stupidity that accompanies disaffected youth, and, youth in general, esp. in the 60s; you think that they could have only written that stuff on the walls by being under the firm control of Manson?