Violence in video games

Great Debates
1

According to this article, the EU (in the form of German who currently holds the EU presidency) has decided to take aim at violent video games.

For debate…thoughts on this? Is it a good thing or bad to decide what games are too violent and should not be in the publics hands? By what standard is ‘too violent’ to be judged? Should governments ban games that are offensive or violent…for the good of the people? What effect will this have in real world terms on gaming companies who produce violent or offensive games?

For our Euro dopers…thoughts on this? Is it a good thing? It looks like individual states are going to be able to decide for themselves if a given game should or should not be banned. I’m unsure what real world effect this will have on a game banned in one country (or state) but available in another, given the fact that people are using the same currency and can essentially travel at will. If a game were banned in, say, Germany, what would stop someone in Germany from going to, for example, France, and just buying a copy there?

For bonus points, is there any scientific data supporting the position that video game violence contributes to real world violence? If so, does this lend weight to governments who want to ban such things…for the good of the citizens who can’t or shouldn’t decide for themselves?

-XT

2

My initial thought was that it’s nice to know that American politicans aren’t the only ones who make up silly issues to make themselves look good for their constituents. Are violent video games really a huge issue for most Europeans?

I’m not a European, nor do I play one on television, but I would resent like hell having the government tell me that I can’t watch something because it’s too violent. A lot of the video games I enjoy are very violent. I absolutely love the Grand Theft Auto series, yeah the one where you can kill hookers, Splinter Cell, God of War, etc. Do they control the content of books and movies in most European countries? If I picked up a copy of the Iliad would they remove references to Hector hitting someone over the head with a rock with such force that his eyes popped out?

Marc

3

Absolutely, appallingly stupid. Hopefully the individual members of the EU will have the sense to ignore this useless bit of political scare-mongering.

4

I’ll kill anyone who says video games make you violent! And then I’ll burn his house down!

:dubious:

Erm…that is to say, I oppose such legislation and can only feel sad for our European gaming brethren. Next thing you’ll know they’ll have green instead of red blood in certain games. Oh wait…

Thankfully, we live in the United Prudes of America, so nudity in video games (and movies, ads, etc.) is seemingly a much bigger issue than violence. IIRC, the big deal with GTA wasn’t so much the cop killing and car stealing (there are way more violent games after all) as was the extensive prostitute mechanics and the hidden code to have some hidden love with glorious low poly models. Or something. I never even played a game in the series to be honest.

I suppose it depends if we’re protecting the childen or not. You do want to protect the children, don’t you MGibson?

5

We already have laws limiting certain modes of “speech” and laws about computer game ratings.

Under the first, a game painting terrorists as Da Bomb would be banned. Under the second, a game where you get points for running over pedestrians gets labeled “adults only” and there are penalties listed for people selling those to underage players. Do the penalties get enforced? No.

There is no need to make a specific law about “speech in videogames”, since that’s already covered. There may be a need to enforce the laws we have or, alternatively, to stop cockadoodling that “we’ve got these laws, they’re so pretty!”

MGibson, the one thing I absolutely hated about the movie Troy is how they managed to avoid any reference to Greek gods. In the original they aren’t just prayed to, they’re all over the place! But aaaah we’ve got to protect our children! I’m a practicing Catholic but that’s a heresy to History, so excuse me while I barf.

6

Nobody protected me and I turned out… Uh, as I was saying, nobody protected me!

Marc

7

I am a European and the same thing is now being said by one of our Dutch ministers.
I am absolutely furious about this, as I thought censorship was a thing of the past in the Netherlands.
I am all for regulating the industry and making sure that salespeople not sell inappropriate games to underage kids, but come on, what’s next?
No more porn?
And who is going to decide what gets banned and what doesn’t.
GTA was pretty violent but had a very tongue in cheeck attitude.
There are less violent games out there which are deadly serious like Splinter Cell.
Guess which one of these 2 they would want to ban…

8

The whole idea disgusts me. It’s none of any government’s business what kind of video game I play; I don’t need a game nanny.

9

Just rate the games (as with movies) and let the parents decide what is good for their children. We are coming to the point where most parents who must make that decision have played videogames themselves. Technology is no longer in the hands of children. Parents are now computer literate and more so with each year.

10

I’ll reply to this in more detail (with cites) later this afternoon, “As far as the scientific community is concerned, violent media contributes to real-world violence, but the only debatable part of the issue is to what extent and under which conditions it’s more likely. No serious researcher believes that violent media alone contributes to violence, but it is clearly a factor. There is at least as strong a correlation between violent media and real-life violence as there is between cigarette smoking and lung cancer.” ***

This quote from the mouth of Mr. Olives, who actually spends all day getting paid to do scientific research on this very issue. I am confident that with I might be in the position to provide some very solid evidence on this matter, based on his findings and the findings of his distinguished colleagues.

I’ll get back to this.

(For what it’s worth, I’m vehemently opposed to government censure of media or art in any form. )

11

No doubt they have a perfectly clear and sensible definition of “violence” right?

Recall the study that found Pac-Man to be 62% violent.

12

Correlation? sure, Causality? I would need some proof. Who say it is not violent kids who like to play videogames instead of kids who play videogames being violent?

13

In the United States we have the ESRB ratings and I’m pretty sure the industry uses some sort of rating system for the games they sell in Europe and Australia. I think it was the infamous Mortal Kombat that because the reason why we having game ratings in the United States because the industry wanted to police themselves instead of letting Congress do it.

I don’t think it isn’t just a matter of parents who have played videogames in the past I think a lot of them still play them. At least in my age bracket (I’m 30).

Marc

14

We do, but in the UK at least it’s a bit of a mess. There’s PEGI who are like the European (but not linked to the EU) ESRB who rate all games. The ratings aren’t legally enforceable, although some retailers treat them as though they are. (A common question asked by the till software where I work is “Is the customer over 3 years old?” when selling a game :rolleyes: )

There’s also the BBFC though, who classify all films, but will also get involved in rating video games if they feel like it as well. So Grand Theft Auto games, Manhunt, Saint’s Row etc. all have 18 certificates meaning it’s illegal to sell them to someone under that age. These games will also have PEGI ratings, which may contradict each other somewhat as well. So I can’t blame people for being a bit confused. A large amount of customers I speak to think the PEGI ratings are for difficulty and have nothing to do with content anyway.

As others have commented, I think some hard evidence showing a causal link between playing violent video games and comitting violent acts would be a better first move. But then, that would require a bit more work than this ‘think of the children’ nonsense.

15

Generally I’m against censorship. I find GTA and similar games repulsive and inappropriate for children. However I’m from the generation that played with guns and was obsessed with cowboys and Indians and even more so with WWII fantasy when playing ‘army’. Killing people was a routine part of the fun.

I don’t own any firearms and have never committed a crime of violence.

I wonder about the whole video game experience as opposed to how children entertained themselves prior to their introduction. Imagination is been removed from play using video games. That may not be healthy. Graphic representation of violence may well desensitize children to it in reality. Just random thoughts… As above I think more study is required.

16

Its censorship. It’s arbitrary. It’s unenforcible. It’s bad. As to your bonus question: No there isn’t. Studies have been done, but its never been linked to violent behavior.

17

I am also in that age bracket and I have two kids who are still to young to play videogames but old enough to see me playing and be curious about it. In due time they will play (and eventually beat me, the little buggers)

My point was about the argument that popped up when the infamous V-chip appeared that it would do no good if the only person in the house that knew how to operate the TV was the kid who was supposed to be “protected”. It no longer holds water. Parents are now capable of taking over the censorship of what their kids can access and they are the ones with the legal guardianship to make that decision. No need for outside interference.

18

Video games are different because they’re interactive and reward you for violent acts.

  • sturmhauke, [del]violent psychopathic killer[/del] gamer
19

No video games are different because they are new and it is something that kids enjoy and people creating the regulations do use or understand.

20

I’m back, but my husband’s not… I will pump him for “real” information when I get home. I wrote that earlier post in a morning haze. Both me and Mr. Olives are pretty hard-core gamers (his history beginning with the birth of Nintendo) and have played violent video games for years. When he first started his research on media violence he was VERY skeptical that it would produce any results, to the point that he even questioned the ethics of taking the job. Now he pretty much has the opposite position from where he started.

His work mostly consists of interviewing kids of various ages regarding the TV, movies and video games they engage with. One of the things that most surprised him is that young kids don’t appear to have nearly as good a grasp on reality as adults typically credit them. The 5-7 year old group overwhelmingly responded that “Spongebob Squarepants” is a lot like real life. He has also interviewed regular high school kids as well as teenagers who are at a local detention center for egregious violent crimes. He has found a marked correlation between kids who have committed egregious violent acts and who have been exposed to violent forms of media (I’ll have to check on the study’s definition of “violent” though I know GTA: Vice City is a major red flag.) HOWEVER, there is a confounding factor, which is that kids prone to violent acts typically had very traumatic home lives. Media does not appear to be sufficient to cause violence.

Though for anyone who claims that media may not be a factor at all, it is simply a matter of violent homelife yields violent behavior, I would remind you that there is little to no correlation (based on scads of studies over the last few decades) between a child’s homelife and his/her later violent behavior. Children who have traumatic childhoods on average show a slightly higher rate of delinquency later in life, (I think it was 4%? Will double-check my source.) However, I would wager to GUESS (based on what I think I know about husband’s study) that the kind of numbers he is getting in the correlation between violent media and violent behavior in children are not accounted for by merely a traumatic childhood.

The number one issue I have with what I know from the study is, as someone else pointed out before, correlation does not equal causation. Causation is one of those things that are very difficult to prove, especially when studying human behavior. Perhaps violent children are naturally inclined toward violent media.

As far as assertions that people from older generations have been obsessed with violence since the dawn of time and it doesn’t make them more violent, I would have to point something out. Video games, as we are specifically talking about here, are a WHOLE different ballgame, they are interactive, immersive pure fantasy in a way that has not been created before. I’ve found myself screaming obscenely violent things at the orcs I slaughter*** in “Champions of Norrath” and my perfectly rational Aunt has described “The sudden impulse to drive my car off the road and roll up every object in sight” several hours after playing Katamari Damacy. Video games stay with you–my guess is because to some degree they involve physical interaction–which the Wii has now taken to a new level. Furthermore, your average kid these days cannot escape media. They are saturated by it in a way that never existed before. Most kids don’t even really understand what they are seeing–they don’t understand the purpose of a commercial is to sell a product, they think the purpose of a commercial is to show them something cool, to make them happy–and that, of course, is just what the ad execs want.

***Another important point: the idea that simulating or imagining violence is a catharsis that prevents real violence is unsubstantiated. When you go to another person and say, “I need to vent” and proceed to tirade, you will not be calmer at the end. Your heart rate will be elevated and you will be in a more disrupted state than you were to begin with. I know they did this with “venting” but I don’t know if any studies have specifically been done on video games.

Hopefully I’ll be able to throw out some hard facts once Mr. Olives gets home.