Visual Biology vs. the DC Lanterns?

[njtt]

@foolsguinea

But in reality, “color” is a product of the eye seeing the light.

This is popularly believed, and even treated as gospel by some visual scientists, but, in fact, is much disputed and highly questionable. There are good reasons to think that colors are in fact best understood as objectively real physical reflectance properties of surfaces [PDF], which different visual systems can merely be better or worse at distinguishing.

@foolsguinea

Even other terrestrial creatures–even other tetrapoda!–see different colors than we do. (Birds see a lot more, generally; other mammals see kind of like we do, but it varies.) So there’s certainly no reason to expect quite the same “color” perception by the inhabitants of other planets. And if those planets orbit stars with different peak radiation outputs, then they would have environmental reasons to see in a different part of the electromagnetic spectrum.

No, it does not follow from the fact that some animals can distinguish colors that look the same to us, or that other (far more) animals cannot distinguish colors that we can, that any of them experience colors in a way completely different from the way in which we do. The assumption that one being’s color experience might differ radically from that of another is nothing more than that: an assumption based on a bunch of other implicit, but highly questionable (and, in some cases, demonstrably false) assumptions about how color perception “must” work.

[Der_Trihs]

@Ranchoth

Well, there’s also the Colour From Beyond Space Lantern Corps, who specialize in existential, eldritch horror.

They’re kind of a bitch to print, though—not because of the colour thing, but because their dialogue balloons take up so much space. Some of it non-euclidean.

And of course there’s the Invisible Lantern Corp, who create ring-constructs no one else can see.

Naturally, they all dress like mimes.

[Miller]

@njtt

Nonsense. Red and orange are objectively, physically similar. They are adjacent in the spectrum, which means they have similar wavelengths. It is true that beings with more color receptor types than us (and the right wiring) could distinguish between certain colors that look the same to us, but that does not mean that they would not recognize the same similarities.

Most people don’t think red and green are particularly similar, unless they’re red-green colorblind, in which case they can’t tell the difference.

Doesn’t seem that much of a stretch to postulate that an alien that can recognize several distinct shades between red and orange would find the idea that red and orange are “similar” bemusing.

[furryman]

Tomar Re: “Hey Hal, I’d like you to meet the Ultra Violet Lantern Etaoin Shrdlu.”
Hal looks around “Where is he?”
Tomar Re: “Oh right I forgot, humans can’t see him.”

[Darth_Panda]

For the next reboot, they’re going to change it up to competing CMYK Corps.

[Diceman]

Ever since DC started the whole emotional color spectrum business, I’ve been wondering how “will” qualifies as an emotion. Anger? Greed? Fear? Hope? Compassion? Love? Sure, those are all emotions, but Will? The closest emotion I can think of is seriousness, or maybe grim determination.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@Diceman

Ever since DC started the whole emotional color spectrum business, I’ve been wondering how “will” qualifies as an emotion. Anger? Greed? Fear? Hope? Compassion? Love? Sure, those are all emotions, but Will? The closest emotion I can think of is seriousness, or maybe grim determination.

Courage! What makes a king out of a slave? Courage! What makes the flag on the mast to wave? COURAGE! What makes the elephant charge his tusk, in the misty mist or the dusky dusk? What makes the muskrat guard his musk?

COURAGE!

[Chronos]

Quoth Miller:

Doesn’t seem that much of a stretch to postulate that an alien that can recognize several distinct shades between red and orange would find the idea that red and orange are “similar” bemusing.

If they can also see blue or violet, then they probably would at least admit that red and orange are more similar to each other than either is to violet. Although, one could imagine a species whose entire visual spectrum would be contained in the range we call red to orange, or one who has a receptor which is sensitive to both red and to violet but not to orange.

Quoth njtt:

No, it does not follow from the fact that some animals can distinguish colors that look the same to us, or that other (far more) animals cannot distinguish colors that we can, that any of them experience colors in a way completely different from the way in which we do.

Most humans have a three-dimensional color space, but most mammals and some humans have only a two-dimensional color space, and some animals have a higher-dimensional color space. I would certainly consider something with a higher-dimensional color space to be experiencing colors in a way completely differently from how I do.

[foolsguinea]

@njtt

This is popularly believed, and even treated as gospel by some visual scientists, but, in fact, is much disputed and highly questionable. There are good reasons to think that colors are in fact best understood as objectively real physical reflectance properties of surfaces [PDF], which different visual systems can merely be better or worse at distinguishing.

You’re talking about color as wavelength, which is probably (part of) what I would do if I tried to sciencify up the GL Corps (and yes I have seriously thought about this).

But color as quale is a different animal.

I once bent a connector attaching my monitor to my computer. Until I fixed it, the (CRT) monitor was firing red and green in unison. So my monitor displayed a two-primary-color world, in blue (not cyan), yellow, and gray. As someone who decidedly does not have red-green colorblindness, I found it interesting to actually see things that way.

I have done a lot of visual art on computer. I am very used to combining red, green, and blue light to simulate different colors–and yes, monitors have intrinsic limitations. But I know that a wavelength I see as “teal” might be “cyan” or “green” to some hypothetical person with a slightly different response. So the exact pigments used in the cells of an eye would make a difference to where primaries are, and which wavelengths appear similar.

Never mind the fact that a species which sees in entirely different wavelengths (infrared or ultraviolet to us) is going to see colors based on the reflection of those wavelengths, which is not automatically parallel to their visible light reflections.

The highly colorblind guy who sees red, yellow, orange and green as basically the same, and sees pink and teal as basically the same, is going to just have to learn that some things are “yellow” by experience, without seeing them. And the alien Green Lantern who sees in higher or lower wavelengths will find that his colors are no clue to whether his ring is stopped by the color “yellow.”

This is one reason that dropping the “necessary impurity” element, and letting Kyle’s ring work on things regardless of color, was very nearly a smart move on DC’s part. But only very nearly, because then Jen’s ring had the impurity again, iirc, and I don’t know exactly what the deal is now.

[Alan_Smithee]

@Diceman

Ever since DC started the whole emotional color spectrum business, I’ve been wondering how “will” qualifies as an emotion. Anger? Greed? Fear? Hope? Compassion? Love? Sure, those are all emotions, but Will? The closest emotion I can think of is seriousness, or maybe grim determination.

I’ve read this criticism before, but it seems to me that the emotional spectrum as DC presents it is a fairly cohesive concept, especially when compared with the rest of the GL mythos. It’s just that it’s not composed of emotions, as most people think of them. Nor is it a spectrum.

Rather, green represents what most people think of as a balanced, healthy psyche, with the individual in rational control of him- or herself. The other colors represent paired positive and negative alternative psychological states arranged vaguely (though this has been alluded to directly in the stories) in order of the degree to which they disempower the individual or create an external locus of control. So closest to green, you have the opposite pair blue (hope) and yellow (fear), then indigo (compassion) and orange (greed), and furthest from the center, violet (love) and red (anger/hate)

The Blue, Indigo and Violet Lantern Corps are seen as basically “good” and supportive of the Green Lantern main characters, but as the colors move toward the edge of the spectrum, their powers (and emotional states) are seen as increasingly controlling the people in their respective Corps. Likewise the opposite “Sinestro” (Yellow Lantern), Orange, and Red Lantern Corps, which are largely made up of “evil” (though not unsympathetic) characters, who are likewise increasingly controlled by their powers the further from Green you get.

It’s all meaningless bullshit, to be sure, but as amateur pop psychology goes, it could be a lot worse, especially in a comic book. I’d say it makes about as much sense as the Force in Star Wars or the magic power of Love in Harry Potter.

[Alan_Smithee]

@foolsguinea

This is one reason that dropping the “necessary impurity” element, and letting Kyle’s ring work on things regardless of color, was very nearly a smart move on DC’s part. But only very nearly, because then Jen’s ring had the impurity again, iirc, and I don’t know exactly what the deal is now.

They’ve essentially handwaved it away. While Hal was possessed by Parallax (the embodiment of “the YELLOW energy of FEAR”), he discovered that in order for GLs to use their rings against yellow objects, they merely had to “feel fear and overcome it.” So now only untrained noob GLs have trouble with schoolbusses and number 2 pencils. (I’m pretty sure even Alan Scott can handle pencils now that the source of his powers is essentially the same as Swamp Thing’s!)

You see now why I said that compared to the rest of the mythos the Emotional Spectrum actually makes sense, right?

[Diceman]

@Alan_Smithee

You see now why I said that compared to the rest of the mythos the Emotional Spectrum actually makes sense, right?

When you explain it like that, yes. It might actually be the most well-thought-out aspect of the entire DC multiverse

[Lightray]

@Alan_Smithee

Rather, green represents what most people think of as a balanced, healthy psyche, with the individual in rational control of him- or herself. The other colors represent paired positive and negative alternative psychological states arranged vaguely (though this has been alluded to directly in the stories) in order of the degree to which they disempower the individual or create an external locus of control. So closest to green, you have the opposite pair blue (hope) and yellow (fear), then indigo (compassion) and orange (greed), and furthest from the center, violet (love) and red (anger/hate)

Not quite. Although I stopped reading GL books when the Johns’ newest special snowflake GL showed up, the portrayal of the Guardians – who basically mainline the Green/Will energy – was that they were will-crazed fascists, intent on eradicating free will throughout the universe.

Given the uncountable number of times that GL has gone through a “Guardians go crazy” storyline, I’d say that Green/Will may represent the least balanced psyches. Now, this may have changed since they replaced the prior Guardians with the smurf-like ones who’d been imprisoned for most of time… but give it a year or so before they go crazy, too.

Really, the Blue Lanterns are the only ones you’d want to run into; the rest are jerks.

[Alan_Smithee]

Yeah, I ignored the whole Guardians-are-assholes thing, partly because I never really thought it fit in with the emotional spectrum very well. But I was also thinking of Green as representing a healthy ego in the Jennifer Melfi “let’s make Tony an effective, self-actualized sociopath” kind of way.